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Author Topic: Rare Papal Video Footage  (Read 3854 times)

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Offline Jamie

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Rare Papal Video Footage
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2009, 03:14:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    Certainly the Beatific Vision exists independent of time and matter, but you cannot deny (without falling into heresy) that it does or will co-exist with matter after the Last Day (cf. Council of Florence, Athanasian Creed).


    Indeed - and I did not deny it.  I take it from your not mentioning my other point that you concur that we lose all sense knowledge when the soul departs from the body and retain only intellectual knowledge.

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #16 on: December 16, 2009, 12:24:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jamie
    Quote from: CM
    Certainly the Beatific Vision exists independent of time and matter, but you cannot deny (without falling into heresy) that it does or will co-exist with matter after the Last Day (cf. Council of Florence, Athanasian Creed).


    Indeed - and I did not deny it.  I take it from your not mentioning my other point that you concur that we lose all sense knowledge when the soul departs from the body and retain only intellectual knowledge.


    Note, he is always looking to label someone as a "heretic"....the Inquisitor of the Couch....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #17 on: December 16, 2009, 12:40:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    If you are Mike Bizzaro, nobody is a Jew.  He calls the present day Jews "People who call themselves Jews" and he insists that the Old Testament Israelites were not "Jews".  In other words, it is a made up word that doesn't exist, even though many people use it to describe themselves or others.

    Roscoe, according to you, is there any such thing as a Jew?  How about a sedevacantist?


    I am on record saying that just as there is no such thing as a 'Free Church in a Free State' or 'Sola Scriptura' there is also no such thing as a 'sede vacantist'.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 12:43:55 PM »
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  • just to post:

    "Mark well that in the Catholic Mass, Abraham is our Patriarch and forefather. Anti-Semitism is incompatible with the lofty thought which that fact expresses. It is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no, I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible. Through Christ and in Christ we are the spiritual progeny of Abraham. Spiritually, we [Christians] are all Semites"
    Pius XI address to Belgium Pilgrims 1938  
    Marchione 1997, p. 53.
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Jamie

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    « Reply #19 on: December 16, 2009, 01:52:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: CM
    In other words, thus far it has yet to be proved that the Beatific Vision cannot exist simultaneously with matter, time and space.  We have established that it does not depend upon them, but we have not ruled out the idea that they can co-exist.

    Holding the position that matter and/or space are necessary for time to exist, or that the absence of them automatically and immediately means eternity, are equally untenable.

    What is the difference between this world and eternity?  This world has matter, time and space, whereas eternity has no time, but still has matter and space.  So you could not logically argue that the lack of matter/space necessarily equates to the lack of time, since the only difference in eternity is the lack of time.

    As for only intellectual knowledge, but not sense knowledge... insofar as the soul is incapable of physical sense as we know it, then absolutely I agree, but that is not to say that intellectual knowledge does not comprise also of some spiritual sense that we cannot describe.


    First of all I need to make a correction to what I have been saying - which will clear a lot of issues up:

    Time is a consequence of MOTION not matter - accordingly, the beatific vision can never be subject to time as there is no motion in it.  In the end times when our bodies are reunited to our souls, the planets will stop - motion will cease.  In this way, we are part of eternity and time no longer exists in the material world.  As Thomas says: Time is the number of befores and afters of the motions of a body, according to the befores and afters of the parts or points of magnitude over which the motion takes place.

    JUST TO CLARIFY - you said: "What is the difference between this world and eternity?  This world has matter, time and space, whereas eternity has no time, but still has matter and space."

    The difference is motion.

    So - that clears up the question about time - when the soul leaves the body it is immediately in eternity and will remain there forever, regardless of whether it be in Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, Limbo.

    You say: "but that is not to say that intellectual knowledge does not comprise also of some spiritual sense that we cannot describe."

    What exactly is this spiritual sense you describe?  In life we have the physical senses: sight, taste, touch, smell, hearing; and we have the internal senses: imagination, common sense, cogitative sense, and memory.

    All human knowledge of reality comes from the senses.  We use the physical senses to experience reality, and the internal senses to abstract from those physical senses to come to new concepts.  When we die, all of those senses and the knowledge they create is gone - we no longer have our memories of singulars, we no longer have phantasms.

    What we DO have is the abstracted concepts that we formed during life - those are in the soul.  As I said before, this is something like "dogness" but not "my dog Al".  We don't remember those singular things from life but we remember the essence of them.

    In addition to that (and perhaps this is what you are trying to get at - albeit in a confused way) God can directly infuse knowledge in our souls - in the case of some singulars which we see in the Summa and in the Bible where the dead make reference to singulars ("I have five brothers").  This is through infusion by God who can, of course, do anything (which is not contrary to His nature).