Author Topic: Questioning certain teachings of the Church  (Read 1027 times)

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Offline Mercyandjustice

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Questioning certain teachings of the Church
« on: February 05, 2019, 07:32:31 PM »
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  • Lately I've been questioning certain beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church:

    • Indulgences and the treasury of the saints
    • The idea of temporal punishment.




    Can anyone help with this? I guess the main thing i've been wondering is whether these are ancient (early church) teachings or whether they began to be believed over time.

    Thanks


    Christians who preach their doctrine with bitterness and sarcasm don't preach out of love for God or souls, but only to assert dominance over others; out of pride.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 09:57:59 PM »
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  • Maybe if you were to spell out what problems you have with these questions, it would help you to think through the questions. It sounds like you want somebody to sort out your problems when we don't know what issues you have with these things.

    Anyway, good to see you back!


    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #2 on: February 05, 2019, 10:13:02 PM »
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  • Maybe if you were to spell out what problems you have with these questions, it would help you to think through the questions. It sounds like you want somebody to sort out your problems when we don't know what issues you have with these things.

    Anyway, good to see you back!
    I was wondering if these things were believed and taught in the early church, at least implicitly, or if they came about over time.
    Christians who preach their doctrine with bitterness and sarcasm don't preach out of love for God or souls, but only to assert dominance over others; out of pride.

    Offline Nadir

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    Offline poche

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 12:13:01 AM »
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  • I was wondering if these things were believed and taught in the early church, at least implicitly, or if they came about over time.
    These things were taught by the early Church. There is an example of how the Jews sent money for sacrifices for their slain soldiers. There are two types of punishment enumerated by Jesus, the punishment that is eternal (Hell) and the punishment where you will not depart until the last farthing is paid. There is also some stories of those who were relieved by the elevation of the Host during Holy Mass.   


    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 05:58:17 AM »
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  • Does this help?

    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/darmstrong/the-biblical-roots-and-history-of-indulgences
    Thanks for the link, but it didn't help too much. I still would like to know if indulgences were actually taught and believed in the early Church. It is starting to seem that indulgences began to be believed in the middle ages. Would it be a bad thing to admit this? And if you are wondering what made me question indulgences, it was this book:

    https://archive.org/details/IndulgencesV3/page/n7

    I haven't actually read the whole thing, but I've skimmed through the first several pages and it raised interesting points.


    As for the teaching of temporal punishment: I know that praying and sacrificing for the dead, for their relief, is an ancient practice, and I've come to the conclusion that temporal punishment as we know it now is implicit in that belief.
    Christians who preach their doctrine with bitterness and sarcasm don't preach out of love for God or souls, but only to assert dominance over others; out of pride.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 08:43:55 AM »
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  • temporal punishment as we know it now is implicit in that belief.
    The use of the term "implicit", is a red flag that one shapes teachings according to his own desires. With the use of the term implicit, one can turn black into white.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 12:05:52 PM »
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  • Indulgences came from canonical penalties attached to sin, the faithful would petition someone who had been condemned to death for the faith for a written guaranty that they would take the penalties on themselves. This was called an indulgence or a lessening of canonical penalties
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 12:34:15 PM »
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  • Temporal punishment (purgatory) is necessary to reconcile God's justice and mercy.

    On the one hand, nothing defiled can enter heaven. Even a venial sin requires atonement. And forgiven sins require restitution. Would it be just for a murderer to repent and be forgiven by God and not have to do anything to atone for his sin (either in this life or in the next)?

    What if it was your son that he murdered? I'm sure you'd see the need for the repentant sinner to do some kind of prayers, fasting, good works to make up for his sin. Such actions are also the natural, spontaneous fruits of true repentance (as St. John the Baptist pointed out). 

    Like the analogy of the neighbor forgiving the boy for breaking a window with his baseball -- but nevertheless requiring him to pay for a new window. It is only just.

    But if there were no purgatory, then a soul could be condemned to eternal Hell for one venial sin. Considering the weakness of our frame, that would be a real problem.

    That's where God's mercy comes in. God is perfect justice AND perfect mercy.

     
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 02:27:14 PM »
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  • Temporal punishment (purgatory) is necessary to reconcile God's justice and mercy.

    On the one hand, nothing defiled can enter heaven. Even a venial sin requires atonement. And forgiven sins require restitution. Would it be just for a murderer to repent and be forgiven by God and not have to do anything to atone for his sin (either in this life or in the next)?

    What if it was your son that he murdered? I'm sure you'd see the need for the repentant sinner to do some kind of prayers, fasting, good works to make up for his sin. Such actions are also the natural, spontaneous fruits of true repentance (as St. John the Baptist pointed out).

    Like the analogy of the neighbor forgiving the boy for breaking a window with his baseball -- but nevertheless requiring him to pay for a new window. It is only just.

    But if there were no purgatory, then a soul could be condemned to eternal Hell for one venial sin. Considering the weakness of our frame, that would be a real problem.

    That's where God's mercy comes in. God is perfect justice AND perfect mercy.

     
    The trouble I have with it though is prayers getting souls through Purgatory faster. Why do other people's prayers affect the cleansing of your soul? Wouldn't that mean you go through Purgatory faster just by being better liked and having more friends? I don't really understand it, and it niggles at the back of my mind whenever I say a prayer for souls in Purgatory.

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 05:59:04 PM »
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  • Remember that God is love, and just you can be sure he doesn't need a slide rule and calculater. No one will spend more or less time than is needed for purification
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 09:18:54 PM »
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  • The trouble I have with it though is prayers getting souls through Purgatory faster. Why do other people's prayers affect the cleansing of your soul? Wouldn't that mean you go through Purgatory faster just by being better liked and having more friends? I don't really understand it, and it niggles at the back of my mind whenever I say a prayer for souls in Purgatory.
    Nevertheless, scripture (Macchabees) tells us:
    It is a holy and wholesome thought tp pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.
    Do you always pray only for friends or do you sometimes pray in general for the souls in purgatory? God will apportion justly.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 12:10:41 PM »
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  • Nevertheless, scripture (Macchabees) tells us:
    It is a holy and wholesome thought tp pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.
    Do you always pray only for friends or do you sometimes pray in general for the souls in purgatory? God will apportion justly.
    I do make sure to say prayers for all the souls in Purgatory too, but I still struggle to understand why other people's prayers would affect your purification. Surely that should only depend on your own sins and actions? It's not like I deny the doctrine at all, I believe it and say prayers for all my loved ones who have passed on(although I probably still would even if it didn't do anything), but I still struggle understanding it. 

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 12:42:20 PM »
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  • It is first a mystery so no one really understands these things fully this side of the grave.
    Perhaps the communal nature of sin may aid your understanding. We sin not just against God but also our neighbors, for example if you steal your theft harms another, maybe many in a chain of events that you caused. We are unable to absolve ourselves, in the early church confession took place many times in public because the sin of individuals effects others. The incarnational aspect of our faith shows us that the effect of sin requires God to take on flesh. He requires us to love one another, breaking the bond with our neighbors requires repair as well. 
    So maybe the soul waiting for another's prayers broke the bonds of charity with the ancestors of that person praying.
    Faith is a gift and when we don't understand we cling to the truths of God more tightly.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Questioning certain teachings of the Church
    « Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 02:47:19 PM »
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  • It is first a mystery so no one really understands these things fully this side of the grave.
    Perhaps the communal nature of sin may aid your understanding. We sin not just against God but also our neighbors, for example if you steal your theft harms another, maybe many in a chain of events that you caused. We are unable to absolve ourselves, in the early church confession took place many times in public because the sin of individuals effects others. The incarnational aspect of our faith shows us that the effect of sin requires God to take on flesh. He requires us to love one another, breaking the bond with our neighbors requires repair as well.
    So maybe the soul waiting for another's prayers broke the bonds of charity with the ancestors of that person praying.
    Faith is a gift and when we don't understand we cling to the truths of God more tightly.
    Thank you. 

     

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