Author Topic: Proverbs 8:22-35 and the Blessed Mother. (Read 2181 times)

s2srea · « **on:** December 08, 2011, 01:39:57 PM »

The liturgy applies this passage from Proverbs to our Lady, according to Cardinal Schuster:
"[22] The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. [23] I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. [24] The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: [25] The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

[26] He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. [27] When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: [28] When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: [29] When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; [30] I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

[31] Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men. [32] Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep my ways. [33] Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not. [34] Blessed is the man that heareth me, and that watcheth daily at my gates, and waiteth at the posts of my doors. [35] He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord:"

Someone told me that Our Blessed Mother was known to Christ prior to her own conception. She referenced this above passage, but didn't know she was referencing it and said she didn't remember where it was written, but that she heard/ read somewhere that God knew our Lady prior to her conception. I told her this was against Catholic teaching as I knew it.

Is this to be taken literally? Of course God had predestined His Mother to the Divine Maternity, but was she somehow known to him, as we are to each other, prior to St. Anne's conception of her?

s2srea · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2011, 06:54:49 PM »

Bump please :0

Sigismund · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2011, 09:31:19 PM »

I am not sure this is something we can know with certainty this side of Heaven.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2011, 09:40:07 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

The liturgy applies this passage from Proverbs to our Lady, according to Cardinal Schuster:
"[22] The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. [23] I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. [24] The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: [25] The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

[26] He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. [27] When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: [28] When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: [29] When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; [30] I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

[31] Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men. [32] Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep my ways. [33] Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not. [34] Blessed is the man that heareth me, and that watcheth daily at my gates, and waiteth at the posts of my doors. [35] He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord:"

Someone told me that Our Blessed Mother was known to Christ prior to her own conception. She referenced this above passage, but didn't know she was referencing it and said she didn't remember where it was written, but that she heard/ read somewhere that God knew our Lady prior to her conception. I told her this was against Catholic teaching as I knew it.

Is this to be taken literally? Of course God had predestined His Mother to the Divine Maternity, but was she somehow known to him, as we are to each other, prior to St. Anne's conception of her?

The priest today said to take the verse of Proverbs as coming from the Blessed Mother.

I do not believe Catholics can hold that Mary existed prior to her conception in the womb of St. Anne. But I suppose we can hold that in eternity our view of time is different.

Nishant · « **Reply #4 on:** December 09, 2011, 07:31:39 PM »

Interesting. Some of the Fathers actually understood this verse as referring to Christ, the divine Logos, the Word of God (John 1:1) and the Wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24). Of course, the only problem with this interpretations is that in the Wisdom literature, feminine terms are almost exclusively used.

In defining the dogma of the feast we celebrated day before yesterday, the Immaculate Conception, in Ineffabilis Deus, the Magisterium of Bl.Pope Pius IX laid this down:

Quote

They celebrated the august Virgin as the spotless dove, as the holy Jerusalem, as the exalted throne of God, as the ark and house of holiness which Eternal Wisdom built, and as that Queen who, abounding in delights and leaning on her Beloved, came forth from the mouth of the Most High, entirely perfect, beautiful, most dear to God and never stained with the least blemish ... she approaches as near to God himself as is possible for a created being; and that she is above all men and angels in glory

Alternatively, we could understand Wisdom of the Holy Spirit, and that perfect House He built for Himself, who speaks of Him, or of whom He speaks. For He is united in an altogether unique and indissoluble way to Mother Mary, who is His primary vessel, and the mediatrix of His grace, His spouse, according to St.Louis De Montfort and all the Saints. Or, we could understand that Mother Mary was foreknown by God, "who speaks of the things that are not, as though they are", and it was for her sake, and always with Her in mind that He created all things.

In True Devotion to Mary, the great Saint said:

Quote

There has never been, and there will never be, either in God's creation or in his mind, a mere creature in whom he is so honored as he is in the Blessed Virgin Mary. Not all the the saints together, nor all the cherubim and the highest seraphim in heaven, can equal the glory bestowed upon the soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is because her soul was singularly created to be the vessel of the Holy Spirit. Mary is God's garden of Paradise. She his own unspeakable world, into which his Son entered to do wonderful things: to tend it, to perfect it, and to take his delight in it.

It is even more impossible for men to comprehend the unfathomable perfection's of the soul of Mary, or the soul of Christ. Christ is one person with the Eternal Word in all it's fullness, while Mary is the Bride of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit dwells within her in all his plenitude, her soul is a true City of God. She is the true New Jerusalem in whom God dwells in his fullness: "coming down from heaven like a beautiful bride adorned for her husband."(Rev. 21:2)

Just as Jesus himself was. Mary is the living vessel of the Holy Spirit. God has enabled her to communicate the Holy Spirit in abundance to the members of the mystical body of Christ, who are her spiritual children. To the elect: "The Spirit and the Bride say: Come! Let everyone who listens, answer!" (Rev. 22:17)

The Soul of Christ is one person with the Eternal Divine Word. Mary's soul was created singularly to be the primary vessel of the Holy Spirit. God exalted Mary so far above the angels, and so vast and incomprehensible is her being, that God has called her his chosen world.

Graham · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2011, 11:17:10 AM »

Quote from: s2srea

Someone told me that Our Blessed Mother was known to Christ prior to her own conception. She referenced this above passage, but didn't know she was referencing it and said she didn't remember where it was written, but that she heard/ read somewhere that God knew our Lady prior to her conception. I told her this was against Catholic teaching as I knew it.

Is this to be taken literally? Of course God had predestined His Mother to the Divine Maternity, but was she somehow known to him, as we are to each other, prior to St. Anne's conception of her?

Telesphorus and I were discussing a similar question on the recent Shakespeare thread.

Proverbs 8 seems to speak unambiguously with the 'voice' of the Logos, and the phrases that could signify his pre-existing relationship with Mary (as prima materia, first matter, with materia stemming from mater or mother; thus, 'first mother') are the references to "the depths", and "the fountains of waters".