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Author Topic: When does something cease to be true and natural water?  (Read 636 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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When does something cease to be true and natural water?
« on: February 13, 2021, 11:22:27 PM »
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    • The Council of Trent says the following on baptism:
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    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    My question is: When does something cease to be true and natural water? Would dyed water be valid matter? What about tap water with chlorine and all those chemicals? What about Flint, Michigan water? What about Ganges river water? What about water with flavoring and/or sugar? I am genuinely curious.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: When does something cease to be true and natural water?
    « Reply #1 on: February 14, 2021, 04:31:34 AM »
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    • Maybe you need something more substantive to think about.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: When does something cease to be true and natural water?
    « Reply #2 on: February 14, 2021, 06:37:44 AM »
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    • It’s based simply on appearance.  So if something looks like water and has its properties, then it’s considered natural water.  So tap water is fine.  Now, chicken noodle soup or chocolate milk or extremely muddy water and probably even dyed water, oh, and urine, theologians consider those to be doubtful and can only be used in emergencies when you can’t get actual water.  Another one is amniotic fluid.  Can someone baptize a baby in the womb using the movement of amniotic fluid as matter?  I believe that’s considered doubtful as well.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: When does something cease to be true and natural water?
    « Reply #3 on: February 14, 2021, 06:40:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on February 14, 2021, 04:31:34 AM
    Maybe you need something more substantive to think about.

    I think this is a decent question to ask.  Theologians dealt with it.  There could be scenarios where you only have access to Coke in an emergency ... say coming upon a car accident with someone dying and asking for Baptism, and all you have is a bottle of Coke in your car.  Also, it’s good to alleviate scruples about tap water.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: When does something cease to be true and natural water?
    « Reply #4 on: February 14, 2021, 06:41:46 AM »
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    • Another question is bread for Mass, since modern bread is mostly genetically modified.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: When does something cease to be true and natural water?
    « Reply #5 on: February 14, 2021, 07:47:04 AM »
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    • St.John the Baptist while still in the womb, sanctified by being in the presence of God incarnate.  A fact with more profound meaning than most realize. 
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: When does something cease to be true and natural water?
    « Reply #6 on: February 14, 2021, 07:58:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 14, 2021, 06:40:26 AM
    I think this is a decent question to ask.  Theologians dealt with it.  There could be scenarios where you only have access to Coke in an emergency ... say coming upon a car accident with someone dying and asking for Baptism, and all you have is a bottle of Coke in your car.  Also, it’s good to alleviate scruples about tap water.
    It is indeed a decent question.  Such a situation could easily manifest itself.
    Tap water would almost always, if not absolutely "always", meet the criterion of what is commonly considered to have the appearance and accidents of "water", even if it is not pure H2O
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: When does something cease to be true and natural water?
    « Reply #7 on: February 14, 2021, 08:05:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 14, 2021, 06:41:46 AM
    Another question is bread for Mass, since modern bread is mostly genetically modified.
    Ditto.  Does bread made with genetically modified wheat, retain the appearance and accidents of what is commonly considered to be wheat bread?  I have to think so.  Besides, "genetic modification" also takes place in nature, as new strains of grains, plants, and so on, emerge due to natural selection.  (To speak of "natural selection" doesn't presuppose godless evolution.  The propagation of animal species can change due to environmental factors, e.g., various animals who have physical traits of appearance that enable them better to camouflage themselves from predators, or stronger animals who can defend themselves against these same predators.  "Survival of the fittest" is readily observable in nature.)
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