Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Miseremini on September 10, 2023, 10:52:20 PM
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November, the month dedicated to the Poor Souls in Purgatory, is fast approaching.
So many here on CI, when we die, will have no one to pray for us as our friends and families have long forgotten tradition.
Now is the time to make friends with the Church Suffering.
There is a little book, in print continuously since the 1800's, that is a great help for developing a devotion to the relief of these suffering souls. It is from the writings of St. Alphonsus de Ligouri by the Redemptorists.
Your can view it here.
https://www.catholickingdom.com/s_Library/Books/M/Manual_of_the_Purgatorian_Society_OCR_CK.pdf (https://www.catholickingdom.com/s_Library/Books/M/Manual_of_the_Purgatorian_Society_OCR_CK.pdf)
There are 31 little sermons on Purgatory, a short prayer, an intention and a practice after which you pray the Eternal Rest Prayer three times for each day of the month.
It is good for November to read the whole entry and the rest of the year you could just go directly to the prayer, intention etc.
The book contains other prayers, psalms, litanies, Heroic Act of Love etc., 285 pages.
There are now several reprints but for daily use the paper backs just won't hold up. Though
expensive on Ebay , Loreto Press has the best deal and it's leather.
https://loretopubs.org/purgatorian-manual-the-clone.html
If we don't forget them they won't forget us.
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If we help the Poor Souls they will help us.
https://spiritdaily.org/blog/healing/did-purgatorial-voice-alert-woman-to-brain-tumor
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November, the month dedicated to the Poor Souls in Purgatory, is fast approaching.
So many here on CI, when we die, will have no one to pray for us as our friends and families have long forgotten tradition.
Now is the time to make friends with the Church Suffering.
There is a little book, in print continuously since the 1800's, that is a great help for developing a devotion to the relief of these suffering souls. It is from the writings of St. Alphonsus de Ligouri by the Redemptorists.
Your can view it here.
https://www.catholickingdom.com/s_Library/Books/M/Manual_of_the_Purgatorian_Society_OCR_CK.pdf (https://www.catholickingdom.com/s_Library/Books/M/Manual_of_the_Purgatorian_Society_OCR_CK.pdf)
There are 31 little sermons on Purgatory, a short prayer, an intention and a practice after which you pray the Eternal Rest Prayer three times for each day of the month.
It is good for November to read the whole entry and the rest of the year you could just go directly to the prayer, intention etc.
The book contains other prayers, psalms, litanies, Heroic Act of Love etc., 285 pages.
There are now several reprints but for daily use the paper backs just won't hold up. Though
expensive on Ebay , Loreto Press has the best deal and it's leather.
https://loretopubs.org/purgatorian-manual-the-clone.html
If we don't forget them they won't forget us.
bumping since November is soon.
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Quote from: Miseremini on November 10, 2020, 08:56:22 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/it's-still-november/msg721808/#msg721808)
Ninety-Nine years indulgence for praying the Grades of the Passion for the Poor Souls in Purgatory
from Father Lasance's Poor Souls Book page 374.
Can't you spare 10 minutes?
https://archive.org/details/holysoulsbook/page/n373/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/holysoulsbook/page/n373/mode/2up)
And don't forget to visit a cemetary and church and pray for the Holy Father. Most churches will be open for this devotion on Nov. 2nd.
The indulgences are toties quoties meaning you gain them every time you visit the cemetary then the church on All Souls Day.
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This reminds me that I have a question. Over the years, I have seen the Souls in Purgatory described as "Poor" or "Holy". Should we use "Poor"? Or is it proper/traditional for either description? I'm not sure if I heard "Holy" in the NO or not.
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This reminds me that I have a question. Over the years, I have seen the Souls in Purgatory described as "Poor" or "Holy". Should we use "Poor"? Or is it proper/traditional for either description? I'm not sure if I heard "Holy" in the NO or not.
Even in prayer books over 100 years old both adjectives are used when referring to the Church Suffering. They are both holy, because they avoided hell and their final destination is Heaven, and poor because they are suffering and can do nothing for themselves.
I usually use "Poor" to remind myself of their plight and also to incline others to charity for them.
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visit a cemetary and church
Is it necessary to visit both?
I was planning to just go with a friend and pray the Rosary at a cemetery. Also, is there a special prayer for offering the Rosary in suffrage for the poor souls? Or should we offer the Rosary with that general intention?
Ave María
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Is it necessary to visit both?
I was planning to just go with a friend and pray the Rosary at a cemetery. Also, is there a special prayer for offering the Rosary in suffrage for the poor souls? Or should we offer the Rosary with that general intention?
Ave María
It's been my understanding you visit both. On another thread someone mentioned when they were young they'd ride their bikes from one to the other several times. In the '50's we were fortunate the cemetery was right next to the church so we made several trips that day.
The traditional custom was to visit the cemetery, sprinkle holy water on the graves of loved ones or others, pray the eternal rest prayer, the De Profundis or any prayer, then go to the church and pray five Paters, Aves and Glorias for the intentions of the Holy Father. The Holy Water is optional. That is the procedure that is indulgenced.
No special prayer for offering the Rosary. You could offer it for someone you knew or give it to Our Lady to apply to whomever she pleases.
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It's been my understanding you visit both. On another thread someone mentioned when they were young they'd ride their bikes from one to the other several times. In the '50's we were fortunate the cemetery was right next to the church so we made several trips that day.
The traditional custom was to visit the cemetery, sprinkle holy water on the graves of loved ones or others, pray the eternal rest prayer, the De Profundis or any prayer, then go to the church and pray five Paters, Aves and Glorias for the intentions of the Holy Father. The Holy Water is optional. That is the procedure that is indulgenced.
No special prayer for offering the Rosary. You could offer it for someone you knew or give it to Our Lady to apply to whomever she pleases.
Thank you
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These customs presuppose that one’s home is within cuмmuting distance to both cemetery and church. Even way back, I have not lived near both church and cemetery.
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There are quite a few different indulgences in the Raccolta.
On All Souls Day and every day of the octave a plenary indulgence applicable to the dead may be gained on the usual conditions just by visiting a cemetery and praying, even mentally, for the dead. This indulgence is also contained in the 1968 reform.
On All Souls Day itself, and the Sunday immediately following, a plenary indulgence may also be gained for the souls in purgatory every single time you visit a church to pray for the dead on the usual conditions, plus the recitation of six Paters, Aves and Glorias for the Holy Father on each visit. The 1968 reform only grants it once on the day, or with the consent of the Ordinary the Sunday preceding and following plus All Saints Day, and requires the recitation of the Pater and Credo, but not the six Paters Aves and Glorias...
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This is an excellent little book for a “Novena for the Relief of The Poor Souls in Purgatory”.
Missionary of the Sacred Heart
Rev. J. F. Durin
1931
https://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Novena%20for%20the%20Relief%20of%20the%20Poor%20Souls%20in%20Purgatory.html
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This November (and every day thereafter) when offering prayers and sacrifices for our deceased family and friends, let's not forget our friends from here on CI.
Matthew O'Hare (Matto) November 30, AD 2021
Kathleen Donelly (Donkath) December 28, AD 2021
Myrna Migala August 17 AD 2022
:pray::pray::pray:
Taken from the Father Lasance "Prayer Book for Religious" 1904. Pg 575
BEADS FOR THE DEAD
This chaplet for the dead consists of four decades (40 beads) in honour
and memory of the forty hours that Our Lord Jesus Christ
passed in Limbo to deliver and conduct to heaven all the
souls of the saints who died before Him.
Begin with the
DE PROFUNDIS (Psalm 129)
Out of the depths I have cried unto Thee, O Lord!
Lord hear my voice.
Let Thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication.
If Thou, O Lord, shall mark our iniquities,
O Lord, who shall stand it?
For with Thee there is merciful forgiveness;
and by reason of Thy law I have waited on Thee, O Lord.
From the morning watch even unto night, let
Israel hope in the Lord,
Because with the Lord there is mercy; and
with Him plenteous redemption.
And He shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.
On the four large beads pray:
Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord, and let perpetual
light shine upon them. May they rest in peace. Amen
O my God I believe in Thee, because Thou art truth itself.
I hope in Thee, because Thou art infinitely merciful.
I love Thee with my whole heart and above all things because
Thou art infinitely perfect, and I love my neighbour as myself
for the love of Thee.
I am truly sorry for having sinned, because Thou art infinitely good
and sin displeases Thee.
I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace never more to
offend Thee. Amen.
On the small beads pray:
Sweet heart of Mary be my salvation.
Conclude with the DE PROFUNDIS
Indulgence of 60 YEARS each time, applicable to the souls in Purgatory
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If you have an old rosary with missing beads you can turn it into a Beads for the Dead.
I add a Momento Mori to the ones I make as a reminder of my own future.
(https://i.imgur.com/4TEn9oP.jpg)
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Poor souls can also be referred to "Charitable souls", since they intercede for us. ( they cannot pray for us).
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Even in prayer books over 100 years old both adjectives are used when referring to the Church Suffering. They are both holy, because they avoided hell and their final destination is Heaven, and poor because they are suffering and can do nothing for themselves.
I usually use "Poor" to remind myself of their plight and also to incline others to charity for them.
Thank you. This is what I figured, but wanted to make sure I wasn't getting something wrong from the NO.
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Poor souls can also be referred to "Charitable souls", since they intercede for us. ( they cannot pray for us).
I use the expression "Suffering Souls". All four (so far) are correct. Take your pick, as long as you pray for them.
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Litany of the Dead
Catholic Harbor of Faith and Morals
http://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Litany%20of%20the%20Dead.html#
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Office for the Dead
https://www.medievalist.net/hourstxt/deadmata.htm
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Fire of Love
St. Catherine of Genoa
https://ia600200.us.archive.org/3/items/TheTreatiseOnPurgatory/TheTreatiseOnPurgatory.pdf
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This November (and every day thereafter) when offering prayers and sacrifices for our deceased family and friends, let's not forget our friends from here on CI.
Matthew O'Hare (Matto) November 30, AD 2021
Kathleen Donelly (Donkath) December 28, AD 2021
Myrna Migala August 17 AD 2022
:pray::pray::pray:
I was going to start a new thread on this very topic. Thanks, Miseremini. Any other departed CI members we can think of?
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November, the month dedicated to the Poor Souls in Purgatory, is fast approaching.
So many here on CI, when we die, will have no one to pray for us as our friends and families have long forgotten tradition.
Now is the time to make friends with the Church Suffering.
There is a little book, in print continuously since the 1800's, that is a great help for developing a devotion to the relief of these suffering souls. It is from the writings of St. Alphonsus de Ligouri by the Redemptorists.
Your can view it here.
https://www.catholickingdom.com/s_Library/Books/M/Manual_of_the_Purgatorian_Society_OCR_CK.pdf (https://www.catholickingdom.com/s_Library/Books/M/Manual_of_the_Purgatorian_Society_OCR_CK.pdf)
There are 31 little sermons on Purgatory, a short prayer, an intention and a practice after which you pray the Eternal Rest Prayer three times for each day of the month.
It is good for November to read the whole entry and the rest of the year you could just go directly to the prayer, intention etc.
The book contains other prayers, psalms, litanies, Heroic Act of Love etc., 285 pages.
There are now several reprints but for daily use the paper backs just won't hold up. Though
expensive on Ebay , Loreto Press has the best deal and it's leather.
https://loretopubs.org/purgatorian-manual-the-clone.html
If we don't forget them they won't forget us.
Good point that many of us no longer have family or close friends who would be generous with prayers. Also, so many people believe that salvation is assured so praying for the dead is unnecessary.
This is why I have it written into my Advanced Directive and Last Will that I am to receive Viaticuм and Gregorian Masses from a traditional priest.
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(https://i.imgur.com/CRZDBFX.jpg)
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The Seven Penitential Psalms
https://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Confessio/Septem.html#
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xky7cr0L6nI
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Instructions for All Souls' Day
by Leonard Goffine, 1871
http://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/All%20Souls_Gospel.html
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2OBB5-bP6qs
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Index of Prayers and Devotions
for the Holy Souls in Purgatory
https://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Purgatory%20Index.html
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Interesting piece below on the liturgical history of the connection between All Souls Day and the Office of the Dead.
Source (https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/sundry-remarks-on-the-history-of-the-office-of-the-dead/) is: https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/sundry-remarks-on-the-history-of-the-office-of-the-dead/ (https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/sundry-remarks-on-the-history-of-the-office-of-the-dead/)
Sundry Remarks on the History of the Office of the Dead
Gerhard Eger (https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/author/sicutincensum/) Essays (https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/category/essays/) November 4, 2018 7 Minutes
(https://sicutincensum.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/806px-master_of_the_llangattock_hours_-_office_of_the_dead_-_google_art_project.jpg)
From a Flemish Book of Hours
In the Tridentine liturgical books, as in most of the mediæval rites that preceded their promulgation, 2 November was liturgically the second day in the Octave of All Saints. The commemoration of the faithful departed was, as it were, a supplement to the day within the Octave, consisting in an obligation of saying the Office of the Dead in addition to the office of the day, and of saying a Mass of the Dead.
Supplementary offices, although they have fallen into desuetude after the liturgical revolutions of the 20th century, were an ancient element of the Roman rite. Indeed, the origin of the term “double” (duplex) to describe major feasts in the Roman calendar before the reforms of John XXIII seems to hark back to the pre-Carolingian practice in Rome of having a “double office” on major feast days. Originally, in the Roman basilicas only the dominical and ferial offices were sung. Offices in honour of a saint were celebrated at the respective tomb on the saint’s feast day as part of a vigil rite which comprised Vespers, three Nocturns, and Lauds.
When offices in honour of saints first began to be sung in the basilicas, they were a supplement to the ferial office, resulting a double office. Eventually, both began to blend together. Pierre Batiffol analyzes some passages from Amalarius of Metz about the antiphonary of Corbey, attributed to Pope Hadrian I, and explains:
It results from these two passages that the most solemnly observed festivals of the saints had, at Rome, two nocturn offices, one at nightfall, without invitatory, and the office in the middle of the night, with invitatory. I conjecture that the office celebrated at nightfall without invitatory was the proper office of the saint, the vigil office of the festival; and the office with invitatory celebrated in the middle of the night was the ferial office, now transformed into the office of the saint.
But this ferial nocturn was destined in the end to be ousted even from the precarious position which had remained to it: every vestige of duality of the office, of the joint celebration of the offices of the feria and the Saint’s day, was effaced: there was no longer more than one nocturnal office, and that office was altogether given up to the saint.
A vestige of the old system of double offices seems to have survived, however, in the Office of the Dead. It appears first in the 8th century, as attested by Amalarius, the Ordo Romanus X, and other sources. By this time a vigil had developed as part of the funerary rites, akin to the vigil primitively kept in honour of a saint’s feast. Upon someone’s passing, his body was borne to St Peter’s Basilica and received at the door with the singing of the psalm Miserere with two antiphons. After the body was taken within, the vigil began; like a saint’s vigil, this office comprised Vespers, three Nocturns, and Lauds. Mass would then be sung in the morning, followed by the Diaconia, later called Absolutio, and the burial.
(https://sicutincensum.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/e3690cr-d1.jpg)
The beginning of Vespers of the Dead, from a 15th century French Book of Hours
The structure of this Office is of the primitive Roman form. Vespers and Lauds have no hymn or short lesson and conclude with the Kyrie eleison and Lord’s prayer, and the Nocturns begin without an invitatory, like in the vigils of saint’s days. The readings of the Nocturns were taken entirely from the book of Job.
It was thus brought over by Bl. Charlemagne across the Alps, and although at first the recitation of this Office was only attached to actual funeral Masses as part of the obsequies, it soon began to be said in attachment to any solemn Mass of the Dead, and as these multiplied, especially in monasteries, so did its accompanying Office. The spirit of the monastic reform of St Benedict of Aniane, so partial to the singing of supplementary offices, surely helped fillip its diffusion.
Already in the 9th century Amalarius reports that Vespers, Matins, and Lauds of the Dead were sung daily in certain places, except on feasts. Such was the custom in Cluny and its daughter-houses, where on ferias and simple feasts Vespers and Lauds of the Dead were sung in choir after Vespers and Lauds of the day, and Matins of the Dead was sung after supper.
Cluny was also responsible for setting aside 2 November as a day particularly devoted to prayer for the poor souls in Purgatory. Around the beginning of the 11th century, having been told by a pilgrim that the poor souls earnestly yearned for the prayers of his monks, Abbot St Odilo ordered that the day after All Saints be devoted to prayer for this purpose. Liturgically, of course, this involved the celebration of the Office and Mass of the Dead.
(https://sicutincensum.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/office_of_the_dead.jpg?w=1456)
Part of the Office of the Dead, from a Flemish Book of Hours.
The custom quickly spread throughout northern France and England, and reached Rome by the 13th century. The Ordo Romanus XV, describing the papal liturgy at the time of Martin V, states that, on the evening of 1 November, after Second Vespers of All Saints, the Pope would preside over Vespers of the Dead, incensing the altar at the Magnificat, and then at Matins and Lauds of the Dead. During the day, he would attend a Requiem Mass sung by one of the cardinals.
By the 16th century, St Benedict of Aniane’s ideals had triumphed insofar as the obligation to say the Office of the Dead on all ferias and simple feasts—as well as the Little Office of Our Lady, the Penitential Psalms and Litany in Lent, and the Gradual Psalms in Advent and Lent—had become general for all the clergy. The spirit of the age was, however, far from St Benedict’s own, and the recitation of these supplementary offices were widely considered too onerous. Pope St Pius V acquiesced to remove the obligation to say them with his bull Quod a nobis, although the rubrics of the Tridentine breviary do suggest that the Office of the Dead continue to be said on the first day of the month not impeded by a nine-lesson feast, as well as on Mondays of Advent and Lent similarly unimpeded. When said in choir, the old rule would remain that Vespers, Matins, and Lauds of the dead would follow Vespers, Matins, and Lauds of the day. The only supplementary office that did remain obligatory was the Office of the Dead on All Souls.
As found in the Tridentine breviary, the Office of the Dead has generally preserved its ancient structure, lacking the Deus in adjutorium, a hymn, and a short lesson. The Kyrie eleison has dropped out, however, and after the Lord’s prayer some preces are said consisting of the versicles A porta inferi, Requiescat in pace, Domine exaudi orationem meam, followed by Dominus vobiscuм and the collect. The office concludes with the versicles Requiem æternam and Requiescant in pace.
The Tridentine breviary codified the practice that had arisen in the later Middle Ages of saying only one of the three Nocturns when reciting the Office of the Dead outside the more solemn context of a funeral or All Souls, and distributes the Nocturns across the days of the week: on Monday and Thursday the first Nocturn is said; on Tuesday and Friday the second; and on Wednesday and Saturday the third. On days when only a single Nocturn is said, psalm 145 is sung without an antiphon the Lord’s prayer at Vespers and psalm 129 similarly at Lauds.
In the course of the Middle Ages, various customs arose for solemn celebrations of the Office of the Dead, especially on All Souls. As mentioned above, the Office of the Dead originally had no Invitatory at Matins, but the Invitatory Regem cui omnia vivunt begun to be sung in the Abbey of St Gall in the 9th century on more solemn occasions, and became relatively widespread in the 13th century. In the post-Tridentine books, the Roman and Norbertine breviaries call for this Invitatory to be said with psalm 94 whenever the full three Nocturns are said, and the Carmelite breviary only on All Souls, but it is absent from the Cistercian, Carthusian, and Dominican books. The traditional use of Lyons has the Invitatory In manu tua instead, borrowed from Wednesday Matins.
Some uses also began to modify some of the readings of Mattins of the Dead on All Souls’, replacing the ancient readings taken from Job with pericopes from St Augustine’s Enchiridion and De cura pro mortuis gerenda. The Parisian use, for instance, reads Job for the first two Nocturns and and St Augustine on the third. The Dominican use reads St Augustine on all three Nocturns, and the Carmelite use reads Job on the first Nocturn, St Augustine on the second, and, rather unusually, an excerpt from chapter 15 of St Paul’s first Epistle to the Corinthians on the third.
(https://sicutincensum.files.wordpress.com/2018/11/27ms63vsmall.jpg)
From an English Book of Hours
Indeed, some dioceses in northern France, including Paris, All Souls was actually transformed into a full liturgical day by providing the Little Hours missing from the Office of the Dead, and this practice was retained by the Dominican use. All Souls still began by saying Vespers of the Dead after Second Vespers of All Saints, but the following day was devoted exclusively to All Souls, rather than to the second day within the Octave of All Saints.
After the usual silent prayers, Prime, Tierce, Sext, and None begin immediately with the three psalms in the psalter for that feria said without Gloria Patri, with Requiem æternam at the end of the triplet, as a simple verse in the Parisian use but as an antiphon in the Dominican use. In the Parisian use, this is followed by one of the responsories sung at Mattins: Qui Lazarum resuscitasti at Prime, Credo quod Redemptor at Tierce, Hei mihi at Sext, and Ne recorderis at None. Then comes the collect, and the verse Requiescant in pace to conclude. In the Dominican use, however, after the antiphon Requiem æternam the hour concludes with the the preces that begin with the verse A porta inferi, as in Vespers and Lauds of the Dead (the Confiteor is said between the antiphon and the preces at Prime).
Outside of the Parisian and Dominican uses and those akin thereto, then, All Souls was the last relic of the ancient practice of saying double offices, and the only remaining day with an obligatory supplementary office. As we shall see in a future post, the following centuries saw various efforts to alter the Office of 2 November to bring it into line with other liturgical days, which culminated in the reforms of St Pius X.
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Interesting piece below on the liturgical history of the connection between All Souls Day and the Office of the Dead.
Source (https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/sundry-remarks-on-the-history-of-the-office-of-the-dead/) is: https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/sundry-remarks-on-the-history-of-the-office-of-the-dead/ (https://sicutincensum.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/sundry-remarks-on-the-history-of-the-office-of-the-dead/)
Excellent article and blog, but it made me realize that I made two mistakes yesterday :fryingpan:
I pray the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary every day. Yesterday I prayed the Office of the Dead but I didn't know that it was supplementary, as this article says, and I skipped matins and lauds of the little office. Also, I didn't pray vespers of the Dead on November the 1st but on the 2nd.
Which makes me wonder... if I want to pray the office say in the anniversary of burial of some Christian, do I have to pray vespers the previous evening?
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Which makes me wonder... if I want to pray the office say in the anniversary of burial of some Christian, do I have to pray vespers the previous evening?
The vespers of the prior day, or "anticipated" vespers? The quoted article speaks of vigils with regards to the feasts of saints, and also in the context of the practices of previous centuries. If praying the full Divinum Officium or Monastic Breviary, there's the actual vespers of the previous day, since AFAIK I don't think vespers traditionally are anticipated. Vespers are prayed at dusk, and the liturgical daily cycle traditionally begins a half hour after dusk; thus in practice it's actually the Matins of the following day that are sometimes prayed late the night before. Or did you mean the vespers of the prior day as in a vigil? (For this paragraph, Simeon is probably the better one to explain, or perhaps someone else might know.)
In contrast, the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary is simpler insofar as the content generally does not vary much from day to day, except for the Nocturns of Matins and, more broadly, some of the Lessons and other prayers according to the liturgical season. For the associated Office of the Dead, the instructions are to pray Matins, Lauds, and Vespers after you pray those respective Little Office hours. It's common practice to pray Matins and Lauds together in the very early morning, so Little Office first on both, then Office of the Dead following on both.
Bottom line, no need to pray vespers the previous night if you're observing the anniversary of a burial. The rules might be different for vowed religious or third order oblates, but for laity in general, these devotions are of counsel rather than precept. No less, a good thing to do!
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From the article:
The custom quickly spread throughout northern France and England, and reached Rome by the 13th century. The Ordo Romanus XV, describing the papal liturgy at the time of Martin V, states that, on the evening of 1 November, after Second Vespers of All Saints, the Pope would preside over Vespers of the Dead, incensing the altar at the Magnificat, and then at Matins and Lauds of the Dead. During the day, he would attend a Requiem Mass sung by one of the cardinals.
And also:
Indeed, some dioceses in northern France, including Paris, All Souls was actually transformed into a full liturgical day by providing the Little Hours missing from the Office of the Dead, and this practice was retained by the Dominican use. All Souls still began by saying Vespers of the Dead after Second Vespers of All Saints, but the following day was devoted exclusively to All Souls, rather than to the second day within the Octave of All Saints.
I know that those quotes refer to the Papal liturgy and Dominican rite but they seem to indicate that vespers of the Dead are sung on Nov. 1st. Also, I think I read somewhere on that blog that John XXIII changed the All Souls' office so that Vespers were sung on Nov. 2nd.
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From the article:
And also:
I know that those quotes refer to the Papal liturgy and Dominican rite but they seem to indicate that vespers of the Dead are sung on Nov. 1st. Also, I think I read somewhere on that blog that John XXIII changed the All Souls' office so that Vespers were sung on Nov. 2nd.
Exactly. Modern clock-time begins the calendar day after midnight, i.e., 12:01 a.m. (Similarly, I'm up an hour early this morning due to that modern artifice of "turning back the clock".) In contrast, the traditional liturgical day begins at nightfall. Those late vespers sung on the calendar date of "November 1st" were after the second vespers of All Saints, hence actually belong liturgically to the observance of the following day. Note too that this first week of November is an octave, which is why indulgences for the poor souls are still possible for a few more days through 11/8. In effect, the observance of All Souls on 11/2 shifts the focus from Church Triumphant to Church Suffering for the remainder of the octave. As for that last mentioned blog, once we get to whatever John XXIII changed, then all bets are off, as it were.
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I asked these questions in the contact form of Sicut Incensum and Mr. Gerhard Eger answered this:
Regarding Vespers of the Dead, you are correct on both counts if following the traditional rubrics before John XXIII’s reforms: Vespers were sung on the evening of 1 November but not on 2 November, and on other occasions they were said the evening prior to the anniversary or burial, rather than on the day itself. Following the reforms of John XXIII, however, the Office of the Dead begins with Matins, so that on All Souls’ Vespers is said on 2 November, and on other occasions they are said on the day itself.
Sorry if this is derailing the thread but I think it is relevant. I will pray the office of the dead again today (correctly Deo volente).
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Sorry if this is derailing the thread but I think it is relevant. I will pray the office of the dead again today (correctly Deo volente).
Not at all, this is helpful. Thanks for seeking out that clarification.