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Author Topic: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada  (Read 376 times)

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Online Maria Dolorosa

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Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
« on: Yesterday at 11:52:16 AM »
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    • Are there any traditional Catholics living in Alberta, who would appreciate access to a permanent traditional Latin Mass chapel? I am aware of a Thuc-ordained, well-trained traditional Catholic priest that is interested in starting a permanent mission here, if he is given proper support of course. Those interested are free to message me.
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    Do thou embrace the Cross and bear it with joy in imitation of my Son and thy Master (Matt. 16, 24). In this mortal life let thy glory be in tribulations, persecutions (Rom. 5, 3), contempt, infirmities, poverty, humiliation and in whatever is painful and averse to mortal flesh. And in order that in all thy exercises thou mayest imitate me and give me pleasure, I wish that thou seek no rest or consolation in any earthly thing.

    — Our Lady’s words, Mystical City of God, The Transfixion

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 02:43:54 PM »
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    • Thank you for pointing out that he is Thuc ordained.

    Now people know to steer clear if they want valid Sacraments.
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    Online Maria Dolorosa

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 06:27:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on Yesterday at 02:43:54 PM
    Thank you for pointing out that he is Thuc ordained.

    Now people know to steer clear if they want valid Sacraments.
    I hope for the sake of your soul that you don't know what you're saying.
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    Do thou embrace the Cross and bear it with joy in imitation of my Son and thy Master (Matt. 16, 24). In this mortal life let thy glory be in tribulations, persecutions (Rom. 5, 3), contempt, infirmities, poverty, humiliation and in whatever is painful and averse to mortal flesh. And in order that in all thy exercises thou mayest imitate me and give me pleasure, I wish that thou seek no rest or consolation in any earthly thing.

    — Our Lady’s words, Mystical City of God, The Transfixion

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 06:41:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Dolorosa on Yesterday at 06:27:53 PM
    I hope for the sake of your soul that you don't know what you're saying.
    Tom unfortunately labors under the other, rarer TDS

    +Thuc Derangement Syndrome
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline hgodwinson

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 12:47:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Yesterday at 06:41:04 PM
    Tom unfortunately labors under the other, rarer TDS

    +Thuc Derangement Syndrome
    +Thuc would have been ipso facto excommunicated for the consecrations he performed in Spain.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 03:44:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: hgodwinson on Today at 12:47:13 AM
    +Thuc would have been ipso facto excommunicated for the consecrations he performed in Spain.
    Wasn't he one of the few bishops that had permission from Pope Pius 12 to consecrate without asking? Or was that someone else?

    Also why would it be an excommunication if the Church is in a state of crisis?
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 05:02:50 AM »
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    • No derangement here. I just care about the seriousness of keeping the Sacraments which our Lord Jesus Christ instituted valid.

    To withhold intention, like he did in Palmar, breached the foundation of trust that we have in the clergy.

    We may have been able to verify the reason for him doing that if he were alive, but can't because he is dead. Therefore, a good Catholic is morally obliged to avoid.

    We must not cave into the chest beating protestations of others who will scream loudly that it is ok. It is not.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 05:47:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Today at 03:44:08 AM
    Wasn't he one of the few bishops that had permission from Pope Pius 12 to consecrate without asking? Or was that someone else?

    Also why would it be an excommunication if the Church is in a state of crisis?
    According to this web site, it was Pope Pius XI, but I do not see the pope granting him the authority to consecrate without asking.....

    Quote
    Translation of the Latin Original
    "By virtue of the Plenitude of the powers of the Holy Apostolic See, we appoint as our Legate Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc, titular bishop of Saigon, whom we invest with all the necessary powers, for purposes known to us."
    Given at Rome at Saint Peter's, on 15 March 1938, the seventeenth year of our pontificate. Pope Pius XI,
    It goes on to say that the pope told him this privately.
    "Orally, the Holy Father first enumerated in detail all the powers which he conferred, including the selection of priests to be ordained and to confer on them the episcopate without the need for them to have pontifical bulls, nor therefore to give their signatures inviting them to act accordingly on the strength of the oath."

    The whole thing seems dubious to me, always has. But one thing is certain, +Thuc was a valid bishop - and as such he can indeed validly consecrate and ordain. So whether he was granted special permission or not, thanks to the crisis does not really matter. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 06:04:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Dolorosa on Yesterday at 11:52:16 AM
    Are there any traditional Catholics living in Alberta, who would appreciate access to a permanent traditional Latin Mass chapel? I am aware of a Thuc-ordained, well-trained traditional Catholic priest that is interested in starting a permanent mission here, if he is given proper support of course. Those interested are free to message me.
    I could be mistaken but I think that @Kazimierz is from that neck of the woods, perhaps he will chime in.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 07:16:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on Today at 05:02:50 AM
    No derangement here. I just care about the seriousness of keeping the Sacraments which our Lord Jesus Christ instituted valid.

    To withhold intention, like he did in Palmar, breached the foundation of trust that we have in the clergy.

    We may have been able to verify the reason for him doing that if he were alive, but can't because he is dead. Therefore, a good Catholic is morally obliged to avoid.

    We must not cave into the chest beating protestations of others who will scream loudly that it is ok. It is not.
    +Thuc withheld intention at Palmar?? I wasn't aware of this..

    Would you be able to provide evidence that proves +Thuc had a manifest contrary intention when performing the consecrations at Palmar?

    Concerned Catholics everywhere would be immensely grateful 
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 03:15:46 PM »
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    • The Angelus Magazine reported on in in 1982. 
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    Online Maria Dolorosa

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #11 on: Today at 03:44:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on Today at 05:02:50 AM
    No derangement here. I just care about the seriousness of keeping the Sacraments which our Lord Jesus Christ instituted valid.

    To withhold intention, like he did in Palmar, breached the foundation of trust that we have in the clergy.

    We may have been able to verify the reason for him doing that if he were alive, but can't because he is dead. Therefore, a good Catholic is morally obliged to avoid.

    We must not cave into the chest beating protestations of others who will scream loudly that it is ok. It is not.
    Thank you for expressing your good will. 

    Do you have an accessible copy of the Angelus Magazine report from 1982? Even if +Thuc did withhold his intention in one instance, it does not follow that he did so in every consecration he did, that would be a negative doubt. A positive doubt requires positive evidence, and this is what Pope Leo XIII teaches in Apostolicae Curae, discussing how we ought to view properly done ordinations and consecrations. 

    Those in this thread may wish to watch an interview with Dr. Heller who worked with +Thuc personally and was present at his episcopal consecrations. Dr. Heller in the interview reads from his large collection of old docuмents (he recorded the relevant events regarding Archbishop Thuc at the time they occurred).

    Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l2qRy9wAGI Part 2 (The Original Docuмents): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9QQPqpxqRo
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    Do thou embrace the Cross and bear it with joy in imitation of my Son and thy Master (Matt. 16, 24). In this mortal life let thy glory be in tribulations, persecutions (Rom. 5, 3), contempt, infirmities, poverty, humiliation and in whatever is painful and averse to mortal flesh. And in order that in all thy exercises thou mayest imitate me and give me pleasure, I wish that thou seek no rest or consolation in any earthly thing.

    — Our Lady’s words, Mystical City of God, The Transfixion

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #12 on: Today at 03:59:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Dolorosa on Today at 03:44:46 PM
    Thank you for expressing your good will.

    Do you have an accessible copy of the Angelus Magazine report from 1982? Even if +Thuc did withhold his intention in one instance, it does not follow that he did so in every consecration he did, that would be a negative doubt. A positive doubt requires positive evidence, and this is what Pope Leo XIII teaches in Apostolicae Curae, discussing how we ought to view properly done ordinations and consecrations.

    Those in this thread may wish to watch an interview with Dr. Heller who worked with +Thuc personally and was present at his episcopal consecrations. Dr. Heller in the interview reads from his large collection of old docuмents (he recorded the relevant events regarding Archbishop Thuc at the time they occurred).



    I have posted it multiple times on this website. Have you genuinley missed it?

    Yes, you're totally right that it might have been only the once that he withheld, which is the attitude we might go in with when interviewing him alive. But we can't assume that and the matter is a very serious one.
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    Online Maria Dolorosa

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #13 on: Today at 04:39:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on Today at 03:59:09 PM

    I have posted it multiple times on this website. Have you genuinley missed it?

    Yes, you're totally right that it might have been only the once that he withheld, which is the attitude we might go in with when interviewing him alive. But we can't assume that and the matter is a very serious one.
    Yes, I am quite new here, I have only seen what you posted in this thread. Where might I find it?

    It is not a matter of it *might* have been only that time, that is all we are aware of (assuming for the sake of argument, your evidence of this fact is truly evidence), so in reality it was only that time. 

    This is the problem with the SSPV and those with their mindset: they act on negative doubts, which is what characterizes scrupulosity. If +Thuc were alive, there would be no obligation to ask him whether he intended to consecrate or not, according to the teaching of Pope Leo XIII below. 

    Apostolicae Curae:

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)](intendisse)[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)] what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed. On the other hand, if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.[/color]

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    Do thou embrace the Cross and bear it with joy in imitation of my Son and thy Master (Matt. 16, 24). In this mortal life let thy glory be in tribulations, persecutions (Rom. 5, 3), contempt, infirmities, poverty, humiliation and in whatever is painful and averse to mortal flesh. And in order that in all thy exercises thou mayest imitate me and give me pleasure, I wish that thou seek no rest or consolation in any earthly thing.

    — Our Lady’s words, Mystical City of God, The Transfixion

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Permanent Chapel in Alberta, Canada
    « Reply #14 on: Today at 05:09:43 PM »
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    • Yes this applies in most cases. Particularly where the faithful might have silly negative doubts. It does not apply in the extremely rare cases where the cleric withholds intention. And that rare case has been pronounced also by the Church as being one of the times where we we must not accept the validity.

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