Author Topic: Pater Noster (Read 605 times)

Centroamerica · « **on:** May 30, 2015, 06:31:25 AM »

Does anybody have any information on the translations of the Pater Noster. I saw a short commentary stating that the traditionalists do not accept the modernized Vatican 2 version, but I could not locate the modernized Vatican 2 version.

The Notable parts of controversy

I learned in English the "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".

Apparently, this is where the controversy lies. In English this is the form I was taught and anything other than this I was told was Protestant.

However, later in life I learned the other translations. In Spanish, the common version is "nuestras ofensas"- "our offenses". I was not aware of any other version in Spanish.

But the real controversy seems to be with the Portuguese version: "divida"- "debt", "dividores"- "debtors". The Brazilian traditionalists insist that to pray any other version than the "debtor" version is modernists. (This version is no problem for me as it is the version I have memorized in Portuguese.) But the ironic part of this is that as a child I was taught that to use the equivalent in English of the "debtor translation" was Protestant.

So now I have memorized and used 3 different translations, all of which use very different words, and all of which seem to accuse the others (at least in the same language as each of the translations) of being modernist or Protestant.

Any thoughts or info on this are appreciated.

TKGS · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2015, 06:50:47 AM »

The Vatican 2 hierarchy has actually attempted to change the official English version of the Our Father for years. There was an attempt to change the Our Father in English speaking countries to:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial
and deliver us from evil.

However, this attempt failed because, of all things, ecuмenism. The American bishops simply did not want to alienate the Protestant communities in the U.S. who all use the more traditional translation that is used at the English Novus Ordo. I did hear that this version was imposed in a few English-speaking countries, but I don't know whether this was mere rumor or actually is the case.

However, the Novus Ordo adds the Protestant doxology in the Novus Ordo, though with a short prayer said by the priest before it is added:

For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours now and for ever. Amen.

This addition, I think, is what people are usually talking about when they say that traditional Catholics don't accept the "modernized Our Father". I don't think traditionalists should mention this, however, because Novus Ordo Catholics simply don't add that doxology when they say the Our Father ourside the Novus Ordo. However, the one thing that Novus Ordo Catholics almost universally do is they omit the "Amen" from the prayer. I never understood this and when I was still Novus Ordo I was the only person I knew who always said "Amen" after the prayer (except at the Novus Ordo when it was specifically not supposed to be said).

On another note, the last time I heard a Conciliar priest lead people in praying the Hail Mary, he said:

Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

Stubborn · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2015, 06:56:48 AM »

I would stick with the Latin; ...debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus...

I do not know Latin but "debita" sounds like "debt" to me. That being said, I've always said "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us".

Then again, google translates "trespasses" to "debita" lol

magdalena · « **Reply #3 on:** May 30, 2015, 08:12:21 AM »

I found this on Douay-Rheims Bible and Challoner Notes on line:

[6]But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. [7] And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. [8] Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him. [9] Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[11] Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen

11] Supersubstantial bread: In St. Luke the same word is rendered daily bread. It is understood of the bread of life, which we receive in the Blessed Sacrament.

[13] Lead us not into temptation: That is, suffer us not to be overcome by temptation.

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47006.htm

Centroamerica · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2015, 11:06:05 AM »

Thanks for your help everybody.

My resolve is to pray privately the Latin. When English is necessary I will stick with what I learned as a child: trespasses.

In Portuguese I will stick with the common opinion of traditionalists.

In Spanish, I have never heard of any other version, so that will be where I will have the most doubt about the translation since "offenses" is what is used.