Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Vanessa on December 26, 2013, 06:59:07 PM
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I have read in several places that Padre Pio prayed up to 35 Rosaries in a day, but how can this be possible?
If they meant 35 15 decade rosaries, then that clearly is impossible for there is just no time at all in a 24 hour day, but 35 5 decade rosaries is possible, but that would take at least 15 hours at the minumum, and up to 18 hours max.
So lets say he did pray 35 5 decade rosaries, and lets say that would have taken 18 hours to accomplish, that only leaves 6 hours to sleep, say Mass, confess etc.
I really don't think that's possible.
Didn't he used to confess hours and almost the whole day?
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Yes, he did. And, since he spent so many hours in the confessional on most days, it certainly would be impossible. Add in the hours he was under strict obligation to devote to the Divine Office, mental prayer and the two-hours-long Mass he offered daily, the claim is patently ridiculous.
Besides, what would be the point of such an exaggerated "devotion"? Certainly, the Church could never prescribe this kind of excess.
Such is usually the product of an immature, overactive imagination on the part of the whichever devotee came up with this "claim"; something from which the hyper-pious (i.e., "well intentioned" but badly formed and undisciplined souls) seem far from immune.
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St Padre Pio was given many special graces.
Many saints have been granted some of the following extraordinary gifts, such as miracles, bilocation, reading of hearts, perfume, the stigmata and prophecy. Padre Pio possessed not one, but all of these gifts.
Have you read much about him?
It's weird, but I read about him and am astounded by his holiness.
Not in a disbelieving way.
You know?
I've read he was able to pray while performing his duties.
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Yes, he did. And, since he spent so many hours in the confessional on most days, it certainly would be impossible. Add in the hours he was under strict obligation to devote to the Divine Office, mental prayer and the two-hours-long Mass he offered daily, the claim is patently ridiculous.
Besides, what would be the point of such an exaggerated "devotion"? Certainly, the Church could never prescribe this kind of excess.
Such is usually the product of an immature, overactive imagination on the part of the whichever devotee came up with this "claim"; something from which the hyper-pious (i.e., "well intentioned" but badly formed and undisciplined souls) seem far from immune.
Padre Pio was dispensed from saying the Divine Office.
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So lets say he did pray 35 5 decade rosaries, and lets say that would have taken 18 hours to accomplish, that only leaves 6 hours to sleep, say Mass, confess etc.
I don't know the answer but how did you work out 18 hours?
Just say he could say a 5 decade rosary in 15 minutes, then he would have spent 7 hours on the Rosary. If he took 20 minutes each Rosary, it would take 11.1 hours to say 35 Rosaries.
If he "prayed without ceasing" (as we know he did) it would not be impossible. Also great saints spend little time in sleeping and eating, unlike we more lowly creatures.
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So lets say he did pray 35 5 decade rosaries, and lets say that would have taken 18 hours to accomplish, that only leaves 6 hours to sleep, say Mass, confess etc.
I don't know the answer but how did you work out 18 hours?
Just say he could say a 5 decade rosary in 15 minutes, then he would have spent 7 hours on the Rosary. If he took 20 minutes each Rosary, it would take 11.1 hours to say 35 Rosaries.
If he "prayed without ceasing" (as we know he did) it would not be impossible. Also great saints spend little time in sleeping and eating, unlike we more lowly creatures.
35 15 decade rosaries in 24 hours is impossible, so it had to be 35 5 decade rosaries, if the claim is even legitimate that is.
So, for the sake of argument, that translates to 12 15 decade rosaries if you round it up.
Each decade takes around 5 minutes if you pray it well and not on a rush, which would be praying badly.
So 5x5 25 minutes for each 5 decade rosary.
An hour and 15 for the 15 decades, so 1.25x12=15 hours.
But if i am mistaken on these calculations correct me please.
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Yes, he did. And, since he spent so many hours in the confessional on most days, it certainly would be impossible. Add in the hours he was under strict obligation to devote to the Divine Office, mental prayer and the two-hours-long Mass he offered daily, the claim is patently ridiculous.
Besides, what would be the point of such an exaggerated "devotion"? Certainly, the Church could never prescribe this kind of excess.
Such is usually the product of an immature, overactive imagination on the part of the whichever devotee came up with this "claim"; something from which the hyper-pious (i.e., "well intentioned" but badly formed and undisciplined souls) seem far from immune.
I have read many books on Padre Pio, some of which I regretfully no longer have and are now out of print, so I don't know where to find the quote to substantiate what I am saying, but I do recall that he was allowed to shorten the Hail Mary to just the first part, ending with the words "Thy womb, Jesus." My recollection is that he was permitted to do this so as to be able to say as many Hail Mary's as possible for the salvation of souls. When you think of all the sins he heard in the confessional, how he knew so well the condition of mankind and at the same time was having apparitions of Jesus complaining to him about how souls offended Him so much, it is more than understandable that he would use every free moment to pray for them and we all know how efficacious the Hail Mary is. Of course, this abbreviated form was given to him by permission and we are obliged to recite the entire Hail Mary. I have a book of his letters to his director and it may be in there.
Anyway and more to the point, Padre Pio, as all great saints, knew the value of even one single Hail Mary for the salvation of souls. All Religious did. That is one reason they wore a Rosary hanging from their belts -- so that at every free moment they could say as many Hail Mary's as possible. I witnessed this in person in the Sisters who taught me pre-V2. It was very edifying to see them supervising us kids on the playground and fingering their Rosary at the same time.
If one's attention is always recollected in God and one's intentions are always focused on helping souls, as should be with Religious, then throughout the day one can make use of very many opportunities to say Hail Mary's, even if only a few at a time. Try it yourself. Wear a Rosary hooked onto your belt or tucked into your waistband. When waiting in traffic or in line at the bank or grocery store, sipping your morning coffee, preparing dinner, rocking the baby to sleep--if you finger the Rosary you will be surprised at how many Hail Mary's you can say in just one day.
I do not see this as an "exaggerated devotion" when souls are at stake. Love of neighbor impels one to do this, not Church mandate. But reason should always be used and no two individuals are the same. One may be able to say many Hail Mary's or a decade or two at a time while others can devote less time/have fewer opportunities. We are not all monks living a contemplative life but we can do what we can. Every Hail Mary counts. "Many souls fall into hell because they have no one to pray for them." ~ Our Lady.
I have absolutely no doubt Padre Pio did this.
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So lets say he did pray 35 5 decade rosaries, and lets say that would have taken 18 hours to accomplish, that only leaves 6 hours to sleep, say Mass, confess etc.
I don't know the answer but how did you work out 18 hours?
Just say he could say a 5 decade rosary in 15 minutes, then he would have spent 7 hours on the Rosary. If he took 20 minutes each Rosary, it would take 11.1 hours to say 35 Rosaries.
If he "prayed without ceasing" (as we know he did) it would not be impossible. Also great saints spend little time in sleeping and eating, unlike we more lowly creatures.
35 15 decade rosaries in 24 hours is impossible, so it had to be 35 5 decade rosaries, if the claim is even legitimate that is.
So, for the sake of argument, that translates to 12 15 decade rosaries if you round it up.
Each decade takes around 5 minutes if you pray it well and not on a rush, which would be praying badly.
So 5x5 25 minutes for each 5 decade rosary.
An hour and 15 for the 15 decades, so 1.25x12=15 hours.
But if i am mistaken on these calculations correct me please.
Well, you write that it had to be 35 5 decade then you go on to calculate for 12 15-decades. To be consistent why not just stick to 35 5-decades for calculation purposes?
Then you cannot assume that if St Pio took less than 5 minutes each decade he "would be praying badly". After all, he is known to do amazing things which defied the laws of nature: bilocation, flying, reading hearts. We cannot judge him by our worldly standards.
I am not saying he did it, just that we cannot say he did not do it, or that it is impossible for him to have done it.
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I have had a devotion to St. Pius of Pietrelcina since the 1980s and I, too, have read several books about him.
Furthermore, I concur with everyone who has expressed astonishment at the holiness of the man. There is no doubt whatsoever that he was one of the greatest saints that ever lived.
I was not attempting to discount any of that.
He was also an eminently practical and down-to-earth priest and I think he would have sided with those of us who think that ONE Rosary said very well is worth much more in pursuit of the glory of God and the honor of the Blessed Virgin than a thousand said badly (rushed, or carelessly, or with continuous distractions, or endless interruptions, etc.)
Now, if ever he did such things and sanctified himself and others (which in his case is not impossible to grant, although not easily on the grounds of common sense - another virtue of St. Pius) by doing so, then all glory to God that he did.
One writer, remarking on a similar claim, put down that he did this while bilocating. If that counts in Heaven (praying simultaneously while one is in two geographical locations - simultaneously), then that would halve the time requirement. But that doesn't cause me to reverse my initial concerns about the efficacy of such a "machine-gun piety", either.
In the end, barring hard evidence (and not merely wishful, pious conjecture), not a one of us will ever prove the claim one way or another, anyway. And, were St. Pius to offer but one Ave! for any of us, right now, I strongly suspect its importance would be substantially greater than ever "resolving" this controversy, anyway.
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35 rosaries either 5/15 IS possible but my question would be did he do it every day or only certain times.
Assuming a 15 min 5 decade, 45 min full 15 mysteries:
45M x 35 = 1575 (mins.)/60 = 26.25hrs.
15M x 35 = 525/60 = 8.75hrs
Certainly could have been done even faster. If its the 35 of 5 he'd have time to live especially if he was able to pray and work at the same time.
For example, while driving instead of listening to garbage, Ill do 5 decades counting fingers on the wheel.
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As he could bilocate, maybe he would be in one place hearing confessions, and simultaneously somewhere else saying the rosary!
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I didn't say he prayed the rosary while bilocating.
Let me try again to be more clear.
It would indeed be impossible for ME or for YOU to pray 35 rosaries while performing our daily duties.
But St Padre Pio was granted many extraordinary graces by God, and thus WAS able to do many things which we cannot understand.
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Our problem understanding how Padre Pio lived prayer from moment to moment is the following:
We are attached to the world, and we have a problem losing our attachment to sin. This is due to our fallen nature. As Catholics we are obliged to do battle against our fallen nature and to rise above it, which we can ONLY do by the grace of God, because it is not a naturally human act but rather it is a supernatural and spiritual act.
Padre Pio, while being human, developed his detachment to sin at an early age and lived that virtue throughout the rest of his life. He was unrelenting in this virtue. That one strength and power and virtue that he perfected is the secret to his great holiness. All his signal graces and prodigious faculties branch off from that foundation as a tree's many tributaries emerge from the trunk.
When we pray the Rosary, we generally have to stop doing everything else and focus on the Rosary. While this is not a bad habit or a poor plan, it is nonetheless the first step toward perfection, a step in the right direction, and a necessary one, a good thing, but it is not the end of the road. It is, rather, the beginning.
Once we have learned how to concentrate on the mysteries of the Rosary while reciting the words of the prayers, and experiencing our thoughts go from the actual words over to the mystery at hand, and back to the words, and over to the mystery, and back to the words, and so on, the demands of daily life also do not fail to interrupt us. Most of us have a very hard time finding 17 to 25 solid minutes that we can devote to the Rosary several times a day.
I have a friend who complained about this difficulty, and I told him what Fr. Gregorius Hesse said in one of his recordings, and as he likewise was wont to say when speaking to people, such as he did to me, that when he gets up in the morning he says his morning prayers immediately upon rising, then begins his preparations for the day. He begins his Rosary, and if possible carries his rosary beads, but for some things it's not possible to hold the beads all the time. For men who have to shave, as he did, he would say a decade while shaving, which requires the use of both hands, so he did that without holding his beads, as with brushing his teeth and washing his face and hands, which he would do while continuing his Rosary, and so on. While getting dressed he would continue to pray. While walking to the train or waiting for a bus, he would say another decade or two. By the time he was engaged in the work of the day he had already said one or more Rosaries that day. When you can't hold the beads you can keep track of which Hail Mary you're on by bending one finger on one hand for each prayer, or else, by saying "ONE - Hail Mary full of grace... at the hour of our death. Amen. TWO - Hail Mary full of grace...," etc., and count up to ten. Hearing yourself say the number before the beginning of the prayer is enough to keep track for 13 to 15 seconds.
Obviously, there are some things we have to do that require our complete and undivided attention and we cannot pray then, and such a time would be when a priest is saying Mass or hearing confessions or giving the sacraments such as Baptism or Extreme Unction. Likewise for the rest of us, while we are driving the car or if our job entails driving or operating machinery, or performing tasks that demand our complete attention, we cannot be thinking about our Rosary at the same time. If a student is attending a lecture or doing lab work or taking a test, he can't be also praying his Rosary. If a mother is following a recipe and trying to not make a mistake, that is not the time for the third mystery of her Rosary. But while waiting for water to boil, there is plenty of time for one decade!!
What about a security guard or an emergency worker? A sentry keeping watch has to pay attention to the object of his watch, but he can also think about his Rosary prayers at the same time. Perhaps he can hold his beads and finger them (for which there is an indulgence attached), but maybe he cannot, due to regulations, for example. And maybe when we drive a car or other vehicle, we are unable to also hold our rosary beads while we pray. But if you have a passenger, he can hold the rosary beads and lead the Rosary, and both of you get all the graces attached to the fingering of the beads during the Rosary. When 4 people pray the Rosary together, EACH PERSON gets the graces and indulgences for all 4 Rosaries -- a total of 4^2 Rosaries (four squared = 16).
Yesterday I passed an accident scene on the highway, where there were several emergency vehicles lined up behind the cars on the shoulder of the road, out of traffic. The first vehicles were the ones that had been involved in a minor collision, then behind those were the police cars and the officers talking to the accident victims. Behind those were the fire truck and the paramedics, and finally, at the very end of the row were several uniformed emergency workers standing around in a group, but they were not praying their Rosary! They were all holding cell phones, showing each other pictures and talking, and texting messages, perhaps to each other. There is a great example of how we humans in our fallen nature choose to take time that is available to us, and WASTE it doing things that probably are USELESS in regards to our salvation, and are most likely a DETERRENT to our salvation.
How about standing in line at the bank or at the grocery store, or sitting in the waiting room of a doctor's office or the hospital? How much time is wasted there? I have had to wait at the DMV (motor vehicles) for over an hour. That's long enough for 15 decades!
It seems to me that it's a matter of being in the HABIT or developing the habit of looking for a chance to return to prayer. We are saturated today with suggestions of thinking about entertainment, gossip about other people, watching TV, listening to talk radio, going to see a movie, watching a performance, or just watching people -- "people watching." At some point, what 'famous' people are doing becomes our main concern, and the object of our attention. Is that then not our god? When someone's fame is the overpowering draw of our thoughts, are we not giving our devotion to a false god?
When our hearts are turned instead to God, and we look for the next opportunity to return to our Rosary, we have to let go of our attachment to worldly concerns, and let go of our attachment to sin.
We have to put the inclination to be worldly aside, and turn our thoughts to God, at which point our prayer becomes true: "...Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..., Glory be to the Father and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen."
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Regarding the matter of holding the rosary beads while driving a car:
For some people, it is too distracting to do this and it becomes a safety issue. For them, it is actually SINFUL to hold the beads, because they would thereby put their safety at risk by doing so.
But it is not therefore sinful for everyone. The sin only applies to the person who is not able to do it. And it is not right for anyone to pass judgment on them in their inability to hold their rosary and drive a car. Everyone is different.
Some people can do it just fine. This is a purely natural faculty that some men have and other men don't, and it has nothing to do with holiness or intelligence or dexterity. It is a matter of a certain ability or 'talent' that a limited number of people have, but probably most people do not have. So it's actually ABNORMAL to be able to do this.
But there are people who can do very complicated things with their hands while driving a car. However, I personally don't think that TEXTING on a cell phone is one of them. That requires not only the fingers moving but the eyes looking and the mind engaged in composition of the message.
However, I have known men who could rebuild a carburetor in their lap while driving a car, for example, and they never got into any accidents while doing so. The carburetor was for their motorcycle in the back of the van, and they were on the way to a desert race -- a race that they would then proceed to WIN the next day.
Your first reaction might be, "Nobody can rebuild a carburetor in their lap while driving a utility van down the highway. That's ridiculous." Well, you might think so, but you would be wrong. You'd be wrong because it's not only possible, but it happens, even today. And it's been going on for a very long time.
If you don't believe it, you should watch a movie featuring Malcolm Smith (http://www.commongroundca.com/?p=138), titled "On Any Sunday," in which Smith is seen doing just this, driving his van and changing gaskets and jets on his motorcycle's carburetor, which is in his lap.
(https://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs174/1101360655061/img/529.jpg)
Smith isn't superman or an alien, I can assure you. He's a natural man like any of us, but he has this talent, and he uses it. But he's not Catholic, and therefore he's never used this talent for praying the Rosary while driving. Maybe that could change.
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In my opinion, whether he said 35 rosaries(why that number?). we need to remember a truth, dogma. That is the Communion of Saints. When we pray, they pray with us. And Oh, Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I offer you my prayers, works, joys and sufferings of this day.... Whether it be true or not of the 35 rosaries, it is our hearts that will be read.
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Praying with the beads while driving should be easy if you have an automatic car. With a manual car it is harder to do and it's bothersome and you might even ruin the beads.
If you drive manually i think the easiest thing to do is to use your fingers. Just grab the wheel and lift the thumb first, then the index, middle, ring, pinky and then start with the thumb again.
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Does a rosary only "count" if you move your lips and utter it? Only if you say it vocally? If you pray it in your head without moving your mouth or uttering anything, does that not count?
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Padre Pio was dispensed from saying the Divine Office.
Was this because of a physical impediment? Isn't the Divine Office superior than the rosary?
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:dancing-banana:
Since Padre Pio could bilocate, why couldn't he pray several decades at the same time?
Since I come nowhere near his piety, I must pray the Rosary while driving, or else I would not pray it most days! Unlike talking on a phone, I find my driving and prayers to be more not less focused. It IS true that one can damage one's beads, especially while driving a standard under challenging conditions. I once broke a Rosary while driving switchback turns down the side of a West Virginia mountain. It was raining, about 3:00am, and there was a coal truck behind me. The beads got hooked on the steering wheel and I didn't dare take a hand off either wheel and or stick. I eventually found all the beads and they're now restrung on a sturdy cord instead of metal links. I do not believe Padre Pio ever this problem as his crosses were far greater!
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But if you have a passenger, he can hold the rosary beads and lead the Rosary, and both of you get all the graces attached to the fingering of the beads during the Rosary. When 4 people pray the Rosary together, EACH PERSON gets the graces and indulgences for all 4 Rosaries -- a total of 4^2 Rosaries (four squared = 16).
This is not how it is.
If this were the case, then if a group of 30 people prayed the Rosary, each one would leave with 900 Rosaries!
One who says his Rosary alone only gains the merit of one Rosary; but if he says it with thirty other people he gains the merit of thirty Rosaries. This is the law of public prayer. How profitable, how advantageous this is!
-St. Louis Montfort, The Secret of the Rosary, 135.2.
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Just a math problem here.
If each person in a group of 30 gains the merits for 30 Rosaries, then the total Rosaries for the entire group = 30x30 = 900.
With all due respect to St. Louis de Montfort, I'm not sure that I buy this.
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Just a math problem here.
If each person in a group of 30 gains the merits for 30 Rosaries, then the total Rosaries for the entire group = 30x30 = 900.
You should leave it there: each person in a group of 30 gains the merit of 30 Rosaries.
Why would you square it? Where have you seen such?
With all due respect to St. Louis de Montfort, I'm not sure that I buy this.
Why not? Have you ever seen any other authority say otherwise?
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But if you have a passenger, he can hold the rosary beads and lead the Rosary, and both of you get all the graces attached to the fingering of the beads during the Rosary. When 4 people pray the Rosary together, EACH PERSON gets the graces and indulgences for all 4 Rosaries -- a total of 4^2 Rosaries (four squared = 16).
This is not how it is.
If this were the case, then if a group of 30 people prayed the Rosary, each one would leave with 900 Rosaries!
One who says his Rosary alone only gains the merit of one Rosary; but if he says it with thirty other people he gains the merit of thirty Rosaries. This is the law of public prayer. How profitable, how advantageous this is!
-St. Louis Montfort, The Secret of the Rosary, 135.2.
If you re-read this you might see there's no contradiction here between Neil and St. Louis Marie. In Neil's example the group's total would be 900. For some reason you concluded that based on what Neil said, each person would merit that.
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But if you have a passenger, he can hold the rosary beads and lead the Rosary, and both of you get all the graces attached to the fingering of the beads during the Rosary. When 4 people pray the Rosary together, EACH PERSON gets the graces and indulgences for all 4 Rosaries -- a total of 4^2 Rosaries (four squared = 16).
This is not how it is.
If this were the case, then if a group of 30 people prayed the Rosary, each one would leave with 900 Rosaries!
One who says his Rosary alone only gains the merit of one Rosary; but if he says it with thirty other people he gains the merit of thirty Rosaries. This is the law of public prayer. How profitable, how advantageous this is!
-St. Louis Montfort, The Secret of the Rosary, 135.2.
If you re-read this you might see there's no contradiction here between Neil and St. Louis Marie. In Neil's example the group's total would be 900. For some reason you concluded that based on what Neil said, each person would merit that.
Why would the group's total be 900? Where did this squaring times the number of people come from?
What St. Louis says is very clear. You pray 1 Rosary by yourself, you only get the merits of 1 Rosary, but you pray in a group of 30 people, and that 1 Rosary prayed counts as if each person prayed 30 Rosaries, not 900.
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But if you have a passenger, he can hold the rosary beads and lead the Rosary, and both of you get all the graces attached to the fingering of the beads during the Rosary. When 4 people pray the Rosary together, EACH PERSON gets the graces and indulgences for all 4 Rosaries -- a total of 4^2 Rosaries (four squared = 16).
This is not how it is.
If this were the case, then if a group of 30 people prayed the Rosary, each one would leave with 900 Rosaries!
One who says his Rosary alone only gains the merit of one Rosary; but if he says it with thirty other people he gains the merit of thirty Rosaries. This is the law of public prayer. How profitable, how advantageous this is!
-St. Louis Montfort, The Secret of the Rosary, 135.2.
If you re-read this you might see there's no contradiction here between Neil and St. Louis Marie. In Neil's example the group's total would be 900. For some reason you concluded that based on what Neil said, each person would merit that.
Why would the group's total be 900? Where did this squaring times the number of people come from?
What St. Louis says is very clear. You pray 1 Rosary by yourself, you only get the merits of 1 Rosary, but you pray in a group of 30 people, and that 1 Rosary prayed counts as if each person prayed 30 Rosaries, not 900.
So, what would the groups' total be, according to your calculation?
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But if you have a passenger, he can hold the rosary beads and lead the Rosary, and both of you get all the graces attached to the fingering of the beads during the Rosary. When 4 people pray the Rosary together, EACH PERSON gets the graces and indulgences for all 4 Rosaries -- a total of 4^2 Rosaries (four squared = 16).
This is not how it is.
If this were the case, then if a group of 30 people prayed the Rosary, each one would leave with 900 Rosaries!
One who says his Rosary alone only gains the merit of one Rosary; but if he says it with thirty other people he gains the merit of thirty Rosaries. This is the law of public prayer. How profitable, how advantageous this is!
-St. Louis Montfort, The Secret of the Rosary, 135.2.
If you re-read this you might see there's no contradiction here between Neil and St. Louis Marie. In Neil's example the group's total would be 900. For some reason you concluded that based on what Neil said, each person would merit that.
Why would the group's total be 900? Where did this squaring times the number of people come from?
What St. Louis says is very clear. You pray 1 Rosary by yourself, you only get the merits of 1 Rosary, but you pray in a group of 30 people, and that 1 Rosary prayed counts as if each person prayed 30 Rosaries, not 900.
So, what would the groups' total be, according to your calculation?
30 Rosaries for each, according to St. Louis, not me.
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But if you have a passenger, he can hold the rosary beads and lead the Rosary, and both of you get all the graces attached to the fingering of the beads during the Rosary. When 4 people pray the Rosary together, EACH PERSON gets the graces and indulgences for all 4 Rosaries -- a total of 4^2 Rosaries (four squared = 16).
This is not how it is.
If this were the case, then if a group of 30 people prayed the Rosary, each one would leave with 900 Rosaries!
One who says his Rosary alone only gains the merit of one Rosary; but if he says it with thirty other people he gains the merit of thirty Rosaries. This is the law of public prayer. How profitable, how advantageous this is!
-St. Louis Montfort, The Secret of the Rosary, 135.2.
If you re-read this you might see there's no contradiction here between Neil and St. Louis Marie. In Neil's example the group's total would be 900. For some reason you concluded that based on what Neil said, each person would merit that.
Why would the group's total be 900? Where did this squaring times the number of people come from?
What St. Louis says is very clear. You pray 1 Rosary by yourself, you only get the merits of 1 Rosary, but you pray in a group of 30 people, and that 1 Rosary prayed counts as if each person prayed 30 Rosaries, not 900.
So, what would the groups' total be, according to your calculation?
30 Rosaries for each, according to St. Louis, not me.
So we agree the total for the group would be 900.
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But if you have a passenger, he can hold the rosary beads and lead the Rosary, and both of you get all the graces attached to the fingering of the beads during the Rosary. When 4 people pray the Rosary together, EACH PERSON gets the graces and indulgences for all 4 Rosaries -- a total of 4^2 Rosaries (four squared = 16).
This is not how it is.
If this were the case, then if a group of 30 people prayed the Rosary, each one would leave with 900 Rosaries!
One who says his Rosary alone only gains the merit of one Rosary; but if he says it with thirty other people he gains the merit of thirty Rosaries. This is the law of public prayer. How profitable, how advantageous this is!
-St. Louis Montfort, The Secret of the Rosary, 135.2.
If you re-read this you might see there's no contradiction here between Neil and St. Louis Marie. In Neil's example the group's total would be 900. For some reason you concluded that based on what Neil said, each person would merit that.
Why would the group's total be 900? Where did this squaring times the number of people come from?
What St. Louis says is very clear. You pray 1 Rosary by yourself, you only get the merits of 1 Rosary, but you pray in a group of 30 people, and that 1 Rosary prayed counts as if each person prayed 30 Rosaries, not 900.
So, what would the groups' total be, according to your calculation?
30 Rosaries for each, according to St. Louis, not me.
I think that Neil is saying the total received, if each person receives 30 than the total Rosary merits received are 900.
I side with St. Louis de Montfort. Praying in groups is more effective and this is proven. The only other option is that each person gains the merits of 1 Rosary even if prayed in a group of 30, so then the total merits received are 30, 1 for each person.
I'm not strong at math, but I managed to make sense out of what Neil says, and I disagree with it.
I guess there is the option of shared merits? The group would share in the merits of 30 Rosaries and each person would receive the merits for 30 shared Rosaries, but the total would remain 30 merits for the group.
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So we agree the total for the group would be 900.
I get it now. I'm terribly sorry.
Wish there was an embarrassed face emoticon.
Although i do understand it now, I'm not sure if that's how it actually is though, or if it just stays at 30.
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Changing the subject, but still concerning Padre Pio. Is it true when Padre Pio's coffin was
opened for his canonization. That the remains of his body was not there. But just his
robe. The body on display is actually a wax figure.
About John XXIII, when his coffin was opened. His body was found upside down?
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I get it now. I'm terribly sorry.
It's OK. I find it's very easy to misread a word or number on a forum.
I read once in a Fatima Crusader that St. Pio prayed about a hundred rosaries a day. I don't doubt that at all, based on everything else I know about that great saint.
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Does a rosary only "count" if you move your lips and utter it? Only if you say it vocally? If you pray it in your head without moving your mouth or uttering anything, does that not count?
Of course it counts if it's prayed silently. Although, I think to gain the plenary indulgence by praying the rosary with others in a church, it has to be said aloud - that is, at least half of it, if it's said in turns.