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Author Topic: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History  (Read 2460 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2022, 12:18:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 28, 2022, 12:09:24 PM
    Actually, if you want to read Ottaviani's non-revocation and subsequent reaffirmation of the Ottaviani Intervention as a retraction, that's up to you.

    Here follow the pertinent pages from Michael Davies' Pope Paul's New Mass (next post):

    Looking forward to it. I'm hoping for the sake of your argument that this wasn't first revealed in Davies's book published in 1980 after Cardinal Ottaviani's death. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #31 on: December 28, 2022, 12:45:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on December 28, 2022, 12:18:05 PM
    Looking forward to it. I'm hoping for the sake of your argument that this wasn't first revealed in Davies's book published in 1980 after Cardinal Ottaviani's death.

    According to this (See pic of p.488 below, beginning with "Jean Madiran provided a most detailed analysis..." and continuing until p.491), it looks like the fraud was revealed/alleged almost immediately by Jean Madiran in Itineraires #142 (April, 1970):


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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #32 on: December 28, 2022, 01:17:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 28, 2022, 12:17:13 PM

    Pope Paul's New Mass: The Ottaviani Intervention (pp. 483-492): Readers can make their own judgments regarding Davies' assessment of the "retraction narrative:"





































    So the critical page here is page 491. A month after Lafond's publication of the letter, Card. Ottaviani tells Madiran that the claim that he didn't give his authorization to the publication of his letter attached to the Intervention is false, since his authorization of its publication was "authentic, real and not revoked." As I said, that's merely a validation of his authorization of the publication of the letter and his standing behind the issuance of the Intervention, and that he never revoked his authorization of publication of the letter attached with the Intervention. 

    Conspicuously absent from Madiran's description of his conversation with Ottaviani after the publication of Lafond's letter is a denial by the Cardinal of the other statements in the letter or any indication of continuing objection to the Novus Ordo, i.e. any rejection of these statements:

    Quote
    I have rejoiced profoundly to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and especially the doctrinal precisions contained in his discourses at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26[a] after which I believe, no one can any longer be genuinely scandalized. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your "Doctrinal Note" [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae wide diffusion and success.

    Isn't that the critical issue regarding the Cardinal's alleged approval of the published NO?

    So the Cardinal's comments, as I suspected, appear to be a ratification of his letter and involvement with the Intervention and not a rejection of the New Mass subsequently promulgated and introduced into the Church by Paul VI.  
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #33 on: December 28, 2022, 01:44:24 PM »
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    • DR-

    If these words in the Letter to Dom Lafond, and attributed to Ottaviani, are seriously to be believed to come from him, then as Davies points out, he’s a senile fool rejoicing in his own defamation and derision:

    “I have rejoiced profoundly to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and especially the doctrinal precisions contained in his discourses at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26[a] after which I believe, no one can any longer be genuinely scandalized. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your "Doctrinal Note" [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae wide diffusion and success.“

    Note that it’s not only this Letter which Lafond uses against Ottaviani, but he also says (in the Doctrinal Note) that Ottaviani helped compose the very prayers of the new rite which he attacks in the Brief Critical Study, and that Ottaviani wasn’t even familiar with the contents of the Study (see bottom of p.487-488)!

    This is hardly believable, and known in Latin as Bullus Shiticus.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #34 on: December 28, 2022, 03:50:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 28, 2022, 01:44:24 PM
    DR-

    If these words in the Letter to Dom Lafond, and attributed to Ottaviani, are seriously to be believed to come from him, then as Davies points out, he’s a senile fool rejoicing in his own defamation and derision:

    “I have rejoiced profoundly to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and especially the doctrinal precisions contained in his discourses at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26[a] after which I believe, no one can any longer be genuinely scandalized. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your "Doctrinal Note" [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae wide diffusion and success.“

    Note that it’s not only this Letter which Lafond uses against Ottaviani, but he also says (in the Doctrinal Note) that Ottaviani helped compose the very prayers of the new rite which he attacks in the Brief Critical Study, and that Ottaviani wasn’t even familiar with the contents of the Study (see bottom of p.487-488)!

    This is hardly believable, and known in Latin as Bullus Shiticus.

    I was giving only a partial critique of Madiran's comments on his interview with Ottaviani, and the substantial point on the critical issue about Ottaviani's ultimate approval or non-approval of Paul VI's mass. We don't have the context provided; there are no verbatim quotes even attributed to Ottaviani; did he discuss with Ottaviani the letter itself, or only the matter of "did you authorize publication of your letter with the Intervention." There is substantial grounds for question. 

    The most significant of course remaining untouched, and the original point Yeti made: no public statement about the letter being not authorized by the Cardinal; no continuing expression of profound problems with the Paul VI's rite. The man (Ottaviani) said it was standing the theology of the Mass on its head and altering the true faith . . . and he says nothing further after the Intervention and the official promulgation and implementation of the NO?

    In many ways, this claim that he didn't in fact change his view of Paul VI's mass, in light of his claims about it in the Intervention and subsequent silence after its promulgation and implementation, does more damage to his reputation than a claim he never changed from the view expressed in the Intervention. 

     
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #35 on: December 28, 2022, 04:02:16 PM »
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    • The more one reads the pages from Davies more and more questions arise. On page 484 it's related that Card. Ottaviani signed the letter on Sept. 13th. It was planned to be given to the Pope without any publication to the outside world - and this according to Davies - for a 30 day period. Unfortunately, it's given to a priest on Sept. 14 and it gets published before the pope ever got it.

    Could that publication - before the pope got the letter and had his 30 days to review it - be the "publication" Card. Ottaviani is saying he regrets and was unauthorized?

    There's a ton of holes in this forgery thing I think.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
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