Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History  (Read 2433 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SeanJohnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15060
  • Reputation: +10006/-3162
  • Gender: Male
Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
« on: December 27, 2022, 09:38:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • "Cardinals Alfredo Ottaviani and Antonio Bacci sent the Short Critical Study to Pope Paul VI with a cover letter dated 25 September 1969. The study cast doubt on the orthodoxy of the Mass of Paul VI, which had been promulgated by the apostolic constitution Missale Romanum of 3 April 1969, though the definitive text, which took account of some of the criticisms of the Short Critical Study, had not yet appeared.[2]

    Michel-Louis Guérard des Lauriers is said to be the main intellectual force behind the study.[3]

    Pope Paul VI asked the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the department of the Roman Curia that Ottaviani had earlier headed, to examine the Short Critical Study. It responded on 12 November 1969 that the docuмent contained many affirmations that were "superficial, exaggerated, inexact, emotional and false".[4]

    A letter of 17 February 1970 signed by Ottaviani and addressed to Gerard Lafond, was published by La Docuмentation catholique [fr].[5] It stated:

    Quote
    Quote I have rejoiced profoundly to read the Discourse by the Holy Father on the question of the new Ordo Missae, and especially the doctrinal precisions contained in his discourses at the public Audiences of November 19 and 26[a] after which I believe, no one can any longer be genuinely scandalized. As for the rest, a prudent and intelligent catechesis must be undertaken to solve some legitimate perplexities which the text is capable of arousing. In this sense I wish your "Doctrinal Note" [on the Pauline Rite Mass] and the activity of the Militia Sanctae Mariae wide diffusion and success.[6]

    The letter also expressed regret on the part of the cardinal that his letter of 25 September 1969 had been published:

    Quote
    Quote I regret only that my name has been misused in a way I did not wish, by publishing a letter that I wrote to the Holy Father without authorizing anyone to publish it.[7]

    Jean Madiran, a traditionalist Catholic who was the founder-director of the review Itinéraires, which was condemned by the French episcopate in 1966,[8] maintained that Itinéraires had received the cardinal's authorization to publish his letter to the Pope and suggested that Ottaviani had signed the letter to Dom Gerard-Marie Lafond, prepared by Ottaviani's secretary, without knowing its contents, since Ottaviani was blind.[9]"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottaviani_Intervention 

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #1 on: December 27, 2022, 09:51:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So the disputed question is this: Did Cardinal Ottaviani repent of the Brief Critical Study?

    Jean Madiran was known to be an honest man, and that would weigh against Ottaviani knowingly signing the letter to Mr. Lafond.

    On the other hand, there's no evidence to suggest Ottaviani later refused to say the new Mass.

    Is anyone aware of any scholarly research on this issue?

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #2 on: December 27, 2022, 10:19:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 90% of what most Americans know regardin the historical context surrounding the Ottaviani Intervention specific to the alleged retraction of Cardinal Ottaviani are contained in these two sources:

    1) Pope Paul's New Mass (Michael Davies), pp. 483-492 (1980 edition);

    2) The Ottaviani Intervention (The Background to the Ottaviani Intervention by Fr. Anthony Cekada, RIP), pp. 1-22 (TAN Books, 1992).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4984
    • Reputation: +1924/-244
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #3 on: December 27, 2022, 10:27:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My money says that Ottaviani was taken behind closed doors and ordered to retract the statement, or else something bad would happen.  

    Maybe someone had something to hold over his head.  (Not necessarily sex, it could be money.  Those two things explain a LOT of shenanigans that go on in the world.  And if you scratch the surface of almost all divorces, you'll come up with one or both of these things.  Think about it.)

    I always smell BS whenever someone makes a statement along one line of reasoning, then retracts what they've previously asserted.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #4 on: December 27, 2022, 10:50:55 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • So the disputed question is this: Did Cardinal Ottaviani repent of the Brief Critical Study?

    Jean Madiran was known to be an honest man, and that would weigh against Ottaviani knowingly signing the letter to Mr. Lafond.

    On the other hand, there's no evidence to suggest Ottaviani later refused to say the new Mass.

    Is anyone aware of any scholarly research on this issue?

    Upon further reflection, there is a serious objection to the liklihood that Ottaviani ever said the new Mass:

    Blindness.

    If Ottaviani was substantially blind in 1969 (i.e., when the new Mass was promulgated), then he was bling until his death in 1979.

    For a blind man to say Mass (particularly in a new rite with which he was personally unfamiliar) is to present a significant risk of sacrilege (i.e., accidents).

    This alone makes it exceedingly unlikely that, whatever else Ottaviani had to say about Vatican II elsewhere, he very likely did not ever say the new Mass.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #5 on: December 27, 2022, 11:04:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My money says that Ottaviani was taken behind closed doors and ordered to retract the statement, or else something bad would happen. 

    Maybe someone had something to hold over his head.  (Not necessarily sex, it could be money.  Those two things explain a LOT of shenanigans that go on in the world.  And if you scratch the surface of almost all divorces, you'll come up with one or both of these things.  Think about it.)

    I always smell BS whenever someone makes a statement along one line of reasoning, then retracts what they've previously asserted.

    In the passages previously cited from Michael Davies' Pope Paul's New Mass, Jean Madiran publicly accuses Ottaviani's secretary (Mgr. Augostino, a supporter of the NOM) of committing a public felony by fraudulently obtaining the blind Ottaviani's signature allegedly retracting his earlier criticisms of the NOM, then sending it off to Fr. Lafond.

    Madiran challenges Augustino to appear in the ecclesiastical courts to settle the matter, but Augustino does not take him up on it.

    Shortly thereafter, Augustino relinquishes his position as Ottaviani's secretary.

    Which is all to say that it is much more doubtful that Ottaviani repented of his position in the Brief Critical Study, than it is that he actually knowingly endorsed the contents of the letter to Mr. Lafond.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4984
    • Reputation: +1924/-244
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #6 on: December 27, 2022, 11:52:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In the passages previously cited from Michael Davies' Pope Paul's New Mass, Jean Madiran publicly accuses Ottaviani's secretary (Mgr. Augostino, a supporter of the NOM) of committing a public felony by fraudulently obtaining the blind Ottaviani's signature allegedly retracting his earlier criticisms of the NOM, then sending it off to Fr. Lafond.

    Madiran challenges Augustino to appear in the ecclesiastical courts to settle the matter, but Augustino does not take him up on it.

    Shortly thereafter, Augustino relinquishes his position as Ottaviani's secretary.

    Which is all to say that it is much more doubtful that Ottaviani repented of his position in the Brief Critical Study, than it is that he actually knowingly endorsed the contents of the letter to Mr. Lafond.
    That makes a lot of sense.  I hadn't thought of that.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #7 on: December 27, 2022, 12:35:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In the passages previously cited from Michael Davies' Pope Paul's New Mass, Jean Madiran publicly accuses Ottaviani's secretary (Mgr. Augostino, a supporter of the NOM) of committing a public felony by fraudulently obtaining the blind Ottaviani's signature allegedly retracting his earlier criticisms of the NOM, then sending it off to Fr. Lafond.

    Madiran challenges Augustino to appear in the ecclesiastical courts to settle the matter, but Agustoni does not take him up on it.

    Shortly thereafter, Augustino relinquishes his position as Ottaviani's secretary.

    Which is all to say that it is much more doubtful that Ottaviani repented of his position in the Brief Critical Study, than it is that he actually knowingly endorsed the contents of the letter to Mr. Lafond.

    More reasons to question Agustoni (recounted by Fr. Cekada in his introductory remarks, cited above):

    1) Agustoni was a member of Consilium;

    2) Agostoni was also a member of the Congregation for Divine Worship;

    3) His brother was also a member of Consilium;

    In other words, the blind Cardinal's secretary was heavily invested in precisely the very project Ottaviani was criticizing.

    Therefore, we have both motive and opportunity, in conjunction with contradictory testimony of Jean Madiran.

    It does not quite amount to proof per se, but it DEFINITELY makes the narrative of the "repentant Cardinal" extremely unlikely.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4099
    • Reputation: +2416/-527
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #8 on: December 27, 2022, 10:58:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • More reasons to question Agustoni (recounted by Fr. Cekada in his introductory remarks, cited above):

    1) Agustoni was a member of Consilium;

    2) Agostoni was also a member of the Congregation for Divine Worship;

    3) His brother was also a member of Consilium;

    In other words, the blind Cardinal's secretary was heavily invested in precisely the very project Ottaviani was criticizing.

    Therefore, we have both motive and opportunity, in conjunction with contradictory testimony of Jean Madiran.

    It does not quite amount to proof per se, but it DEFINITELY makes the narrative of the "repentant Cardinal" extremely unlikely.
    .

    I tend to be skeptical of stories of this nature. Secretaries don't typically go around forging their boss's signatures, in general. I think such an assertion would need serious evidence that it happened. Normally it should be assumed that someone's signature is legitimate.

    Secondly, Cardinal Ottaviani trusted this person as his secretary, probably the highest position of trust of anyone in his life. If we're saying this secretary forged Ottaviani's signature, we're saying at the same time that Ottaviani was a complete idiot for placing such a high level of trust in someone who would commit such a grotesque and heinous fraud. Not likely at all.

    Lastly, and most importantly, it doesn't appear that Cardinal Ottaviani ever retracted this statement, as he would have been gravely obliged to do if it had been a fraud. He lived another whole decade after this docuмent was published, and we are to believe that he never found out in all that time that this docuмent was circulating under his name, and with his signature? He never ran into anyone in the curia at a dinner party or even just in the hallway, who said to him, "Hey Your Eminence, what about that retraction you made of the Ottaviani Intervention? What made you change your mind?" How could such a thing have been kept secret from him for an entire decade until his death? It makes no sense.

    Then, if you say he did know but didn't bother to denounce the hoax, that is the last plausible of all if you are saying it was a hoax. Because then you are saying he was complicit in the hoax, making him responsible. Think about it ... if someone published a heretical tract under your name without your consent, unbeknownst to you, and everyone who read it believed it had really come from you and thought you had apostatized, and you then learned of the existence of this tract, wouldn't you be obliged under pain of mortal sin to make a public statement denouncing the tract as a fraud? Of course you would. So why wouldn't Ottaviani have done so if it had been a fraud?

    Sadly, this sort of idea always strikes me as wishful thinking.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #9 on: December 28, 2022, 07:10:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    I tend to be skeptical of stories of this nature. Secretaries don't typically go around forging their boss's signatures, in general. I think such an assertion would need serious evidence that it happened. Normally it should be assumed that someone's signature is legitimate.

        From Pope Paul's New Mass (p. 490), quoting Jean Madiran: "Compare the signature at the foot of the letter to Dom Lafond ith other signatures of Cardinal Ottaviani, and with that at the foot of the ltter to Paul VI in 1969.  You will perceive the difference."

    Secondly, Cardinal Ottaviani trusted this person as his secretary, probably the highest position of trust of anyone in his life. If we're saying this secretary forged Ottaviani's signature, we're saying at the same time that Ottaviani was a complete idiot for placing such a high level of trust in someone who would commit such a grotesque and heinous fraud. Not likely at all.

        Soon after this happened, Agostino relinquished his position as Ottaviani's secretary.  It seems the trust was destroyed.

    Lastly, and most importantly, it doesn't appear that Cardinal Ottaviani ever retracted this statement, as he would have been gravely obliged to do if it had been a fraud. He lived another whole decade after this docuмent was published, and we are to believe that he never found out in all that time that this docuмent was circulating under his name, and with his signature? He never ran into anyone in the curia at a dinner party or even just in the hallway, who said to him, "Hey Your Eminence, what about that retraction you made of the Ottaviani Intervention? What made you change your mind?" How could such a thing have been kept secret from him for an entire decade until his death? It makes no sense.

        You can't retract a statement you never made, however, Jean Madiran reveals: "More than a month after the letter to Dom Lafond, I receved a personal assurance from Cardinal Ottaviani that the authorization  [of his letter to Pope Paul VI denouncing the new Mass] was authentic, real, not revoked..." (p.491).  In other words, if the letter was authentic, then why is Ottaviani explicitl denying it a month later to Jean Madiran?

    Then, if you say he did know but didn't bother to denounce the hoax, that is the last plausible of all if you are saying it was a hoax. Because then you are saying he was complicit in the hoax, making him responsible. Think about it ... if someone published a heretical tract under your name without your consent, unbeknownst to you, and everyone who read it believed it had really come from you and thought you had apostatized, and you then learned of the existence of this tract, wouldn't you be obliged under pain of mortal sin to make a public statement denouncing the tract as a fraud? Of course you would. So why wouldn't Ottaviani have done so if it had been a fraud?

        This objection is negated by the previous response above.

    Sadly, this sort of idea always strikes me as wishful thinking.

    See responses above in red.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4591
    • Reputation: +5325/-466
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #10 on: December 28, 2022, 07:54:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeti, I agree with your impulse of demanding proof (as opposed to just letting a narrative supply for lacking proof). I think the way Sean put it originally is accurate, though. We do not have hard, cold proof; but we do have very good reasons for distrusting the retraction narrative. Because aside from what Sean already mentioned, we know the circle Agostino ran with was up to exactly this kind of subterfuge-- turning off microphones at the council, replacing agreed upon schemas with heterodox or ambiguous ones at the last second and without notice, pressuring conservative prelates to sign docuмents sight unseen, etc. This doesn't amount to proof of Agostino's malfeasance, but it amounts to suspicion and incredulity for sure. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2327
    • Reputation: +876/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #11 on: December 28, 2022, 08:07:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Lastly, and most importantly, it doesn't appear that Cardinal Ottaviani ever retracted this statement, as he would have been gravely obliged to do if it had been a fraud. He lived another whole decade after this docuмent was published, and we are to believe that he never found out in all that time that this docuмent was circulating under his name, and with his signature? He never ran into anyone in the curia at a dinner party or even just in the hallway, who said to him, "Hey Your Eminence, what about that retraction you made of the Ottaviani Intervention? What made you change your mind?" How could such a thing have been kept secret from him for an entire decade until his death? It makes no sense.


    Yeti,

    I think that's rock solid reasoning, bringing some common sense to bear on the question. It's often that disputes like this are ultimately resolved not by referring to some "authority," or some "so and so said," but stepping back and simply giving some hard thought to an issue. 

    Card. Ottaviani never even heard about this letter he purportedly penned regarding such a significant question? He lived for another 10 years I believe. 

    I think your reasoning solid absent contrary, very persuasive evidence, which, frankly, I can't imagine coming forth. 

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #12 on: December 28, 2022, 08:10:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeti,

    I think that's rock solid reasoning, bringing some common sense to bear on the question. It's often that disputes like this are ultimately resolved not by referring to some "authority," or some "so and so said," but stepping back and simply giving some hard thought to an issue.

    Card. Ottaviani never even heard about this letter he purportedly penned regarding such a significant question? He lived for another 10 years I believe.

    I think your reasoning solid absent contrary, very persuasive evidence, which, frankly, I can't imagine coming forth.

    DR


    See my previous response: Ottaviani explicitly rejected the authenticity of the letter to Madiran less than a month after it appeared.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2327
    • Reputation: +876/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #13 on: December 28, 2022, 08:16:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sean,


    Quote
    Lastly, and most importantly, it doesn't appear that Cardinal Ottaviani ever retracted this statement, as he would have been gravely obliged to do if it had been a fraud. He lived another whole decade after this docuмent was published, and we are to believe that he never found out in all that time that this docuмent was circulating under his name, and with his signature? He never ran into anyone in the curia at a dinner party or even just in the hallway, who said to him, "Hey Your Eminence, what about that retraction you made of the Ottaviani Intervention? What made you change your mind?" How could such a thing have been kept secret from him for an entire decade until his death? It makes no sense.

        You can't retract a statement you never made, however, Jean Madiran reveals: "More than a month after the letter to Dom Lafond, I receved a personal assurance from Cardinal Ottaviani that the authorization  [of his letter to Pope Paul VI denouncing the new Mass] was authentic, real, not revoked..." (p.491).  In other words, if the letter was authentic, then why is Ottaviani explicitl denying it a month later to Jean Madiran?


    Sean,

    Seriously? If I went around brandishing a letter by Sean that endorsed the neo SSPX approach with Rome, you'd not comment or disabuse people of the fraud because you didn't write the letter and never made the statement?

    The fact that Ottaviani stood behind the Intervention doesn't have anything to do with whether he also was involved with the letter. Do people contradict themselves, act or think or say contrary under pressure, etc. . . . ah, yeah they do. 

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2327
    • Reputation: +876/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Ottaviani Intervention: A Disputed History
    « Reply #14 on: December 28, 2022, 08:20:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • See my previous response: Ottaviani explicitly rejected the authenticity of the letter to Madiran less than a month after it appeared.

    So you're pinning this on Madrian's "not revoked" regarding the Intervention. That only attests to the legitimacy of the Intervention; it's only a disavowal of the Lafond letter by a leaping inference - a reference sub silentio. I would need more than that as a juror. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.