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Author Topic: Orate Fratres and Scripture Readings in Latin?  (Read 1194 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

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Re: Orate Fratres and Scripture Readings in Latin?
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2021, 02:00:58 PM »
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  • In my now 7th decade I’ve never before heard these things before, nor am I aware of any citations that the Church teaches this.
    I'm not sure that I have ever seen anything written down in black and white to that effect, but my understanding always has been, that only the priest and his acolytes are "part of the Mass", the responses are only proper to the acolytes, and that anyone who "assists at" the Mass (that turn of phrase seems to be derived from the French assister à, which can mean either "assist" or merely "be present"), is merely there as a spectator, or at best, a passive participant.  Spiritual participation is just a given.

    Seen this way, it seems then, that Vatican II's call to "active participation" has basically made the entire congregation into glorified acolytes.  This could also be said of Pius XII's call for the "Dialogue Mass".

    And I'm sure you know this, but a priest can offer Mass sine populo, in which case, some responses are modified accordingly.  I do not have a copy of a sine populo Mass handy, so I can't say how that is done, or even if such rubrics exist.  Anyone?


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Orate Fratres and Scripture Readings in Latin?
    « Reply #16 on: September 11, 2021, 02:41:30 PM »
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  • I guess Pius XI is a pompous "novus ordite" as well since I'm only repeating his teaching. I wouldn't be surprised if you think he was a modernist though. 
    Every time someone says something like the above comment, it turns out that the pope was teaching some minor aspect in which the person was correct, like the popes asking for participation in the mass from the zombies that just went to mass because their grandmother, wife, husband, the kids school, required them to go....... OR the person is misinterpreting what the pope said, interpreting it according to his own desires. Notice the OP posted no quotes from Pius XI.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Orate Fratres and Scripture Readings in Latin?
    « Reply #17 on: September 11, 2021, 02:54:48 PM »
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  • The responses to the mass are the function of the clergy only. The servers and the choir are to be clerics. They are all to be males. It is only by an indult when there are not sufficient clerics that the laity were allowed to be servers and in the schola (and naturally, no females). Anyone that thinks that the laity in the pews sang the responses to the mass, should ask themselves that if that was the case, why would they have been so particular about who was in the schola, when any lay man or woman could just walk in the church and start "singing" and responding away. How any Novus Ordite, after their years in the Novus Ordo can claim that laity responding to the mass (out loud or singing) is a good thing, is beyond me.

    The entrance and exit hymns are not part of the mass and could be sung by the laity, nevertheless, I am not sure women were allowed to sing.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Orate Fratres and Scripture Readings in Latin?
    « Reply #18 on: October 12, 2021, 01:59:10 AM »
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  • Every time someone says something like the above comment, it turns out that the pope was teaching some minor aspect in which the person was correct, like the popes asking for participation in the mass from the zombies that just went to mass because their grandmother, wife, husband, the kids school, required them to go....... OR the person is misinterpreting what the pope said, interpreting it according to his own desires. Notice the OP posted no quotes from Pius XI.
    Here is your quote from Pius XI:

    "In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it. It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies, or when pious sodalities take part with the clergy in a procession, they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the Liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed. If this is done, then it will no longer happen that the people either make no answer at all to the public prayers — whether in the language of the Liturgy or in the vernacular — or at best utter the responses in a low and subdued manner."


    Divini Cultus On Divine Worship (adoremus.org)

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Orate Fratres and Scripture Readings in Latin?
    « Reply #19 on: October 12, 2021, 02:04:19 AM »
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  • The responses to the mass are the function of the clergy only. The servers and the choir are to be clerics. They are all to be males. It is only by an indult when there are not sufficient clerics that the laity were allowed to be servers and in the schola (and naturally, no females). Anyone that thinks that the laity in the pews sang the responses to the mass, should ask themselves that if that was the case, why would they have been so particular about who was in the schola, when any lay man or woman could just walk in the church and start "singing" and responding away. How any Novus Ordite, after their years in the Novus Ordo can claim that laity responding to the mass (out loud or singing) is a good thing, is beyond me.

    The entrance and exit hymns are not part of the mass and could be sung by the laity, nevertheless, I am not sure women were allowed to sing.
    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Congregational Singing (newadvent.org)





    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Orate Fratres and Scripture Readings in Latin?
    « Reply #20 on: October 12, 2021, 02:59:57 AM »
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  • Here is your quote from Pius XI:

    "In order that the faithful may more actively participate in divine worship, let them be made once more to sing the Gregorian Chant, so far as it belongs to them to take part in it. It is most important that when the faithful assist at the sacred ceremonies, or when pious sodalities take part with the clergy in a procession, they should not be merely detached and silent spectators, but, filled with a deep sense of the beauty of the Liturgy, they should sing alternately with the clergy or the choir, as it is prescribed. If this is done, then it will no longer happen that the people either make no answer at all to the public prayers — whether in the language of the Liturgy or in the vernacular — or at best utter the responses in a low and subdued manner."


    Divini Cultus On Divine Worship (adoremus.org)

    Read the series on the dialogue Mass and laity participation by Carol Byrne starting here: A Plea for Silent Participation in the Liturgy - Dr Carol Byrne (traditioninaction.org)
    it answers all of the questions you could ever come up with.

    P.S.- I use to give away paperback full Sunday missals (with the Propers for every Sunday) to newcomers that could not afford a missal and I would tell them that if they had any questions, to feel free to come ask me. All of them, without exception  would come to me and tell me that they could not keep up with the mass, that they would get lost as to where the priest was. I then explained to them that the priest goes on with the mass while the choir is singing, that if they wanted follow the priest they had leave the singing to the background and continue with the prayers in the missal, that one either sings or they pray the missal. I meditate on every word of the missal, I am oblivious to everything around me, I am in conversation with God through the saints and Our Lord Jesus Christ. In my experience the people who push for singing and verbally responding are the ones that like to sing, and they never read the missal. I do not personally see that as participating in the mass, but, to each his own.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Orate Fratres and Scripture Readings in Latin?
    « Reply #21 on: October 12, 2021, 06:54:38 AM »
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    The OP sinks deeper into the mire, revealing himself more clearly as just another pompous "conservative" Novus Ordite, and  no traditionalist. He has been so long accustomed to accolades among the ignorant Novus Ordites, that he thinks he knows something.

    Would Padre Pio or St. Therese say something like this? What comes out of a man reveals his inner life, or lack thereof.