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Author Topic: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs  (Read 2773 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
« on: April 15, 2022, 06:29:23 AM »
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  • This explanation of Dom Gueranger contains an historical error, but runs as follows:

    “Here [at this prayer] the deacon does not invite the faithful to kneel. The Church has no hesitation in offering up a prayer for the descendants of Jesus’ executioners; but in doing so she refrains from genuflecting, because this mark of adoration was turned by the Jєωs into an insult against our Lord during the Passion. She prays for His scoffers; but she shrinks from repeating the act wherewith they scoffed at Him.” (The Liturgical Year, Vol. VI, p. 485).

    Yet, as others have observed, it was the Romans (and not the Jєωs), who mocked our Lord with the genuflection.  So Gueranger’s explanation does not hold, unless one wishes to interpret it as meaning the Jєωs were the remote (but direct) cause of Christ having been subjected to Roman mockery, and the genuflections.

    A more persuasive explanation seems, therefore, to be this one:

    “Here the flectamus genua is omitted , to remind us that on this day Christ was outraged by the Jєωs with blows, as they shouted ‘prophetiza nobis."  (See p.28)
    https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/01715a_5eb3d5421a714bfa8f60375184df9b5a.pdf



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #1 on: April 15, 2022, 03:13:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    Yet, as others have observed, it was the Romans (and not the Jєωs), who mocked our Lord with the genuflection. 
    It seems to me that +Gueranger must be pulling in facts from sources outside of Scripture (ie Tradition/Church Fathers) for his claim.  How do we know that the Jews didn’t genuflect when Our Lord was being interrogated by Annas/Chiaphus?  How do we know that the Jews didn’t mock Our Lord by genuflections when He was on the cross?  They certainly mocked His Divinity as He hung there.  


    Scripture is not very detailed on all of Christ's passion.  The Jєωιѕн genuflection mockery may be proved from other sources.  I think +Gueranger deserves the benefit of the doubt here…


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #2 on: April 15, 2022, 05:23:25 PM »
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  • You can bet that the Jews were in on it too.  While the Gospel mentions the Romans, that doesn't mean that the Jews weren't doing the same thing also.

    We don't genuflect because the Jews refused to accept and bend the knee to their King.

    Instead of accepting Our Lord as King, they cursed themselves by saying "we have no king but Caesar."

    I like the part where Pilate refuses to change the inscription and let it as "King of the Jews".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #3 on: April 15, 2022, 05:26:00 PM »
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  • At my 1962-Rite Independent chapel, I did not bend the knee when it came time to pray for the Jєωs ... was the only guy in the entire church standing.  I prayed for them sincerely to convert, but the Jєωs are attempting to get the entire world to bend the knee to them, and I refuse therefore to bend the knee for them in prayer.

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #4 on: April 16, 2022, 02:36:56 PM »
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  • At my 1962-Rite Independent chapel, I did not bend the knee when it came time to pray for the Jєωs ... was the only guy in the entire church standing.  I prayed for them sincerely to convert, but the Jєωs are attempting to get the entire world to bend the knee to them, and I refuse therefore to bend the knee for them in prayer.
    I did the same. Oh for the pre1955 liturgies.:pray:
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #5 on: April 16, 2022, 03:16:26 PM »
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  • At my 1962-Rite Independent chapel, I did not bend the knee when it came time to pray for the Jєωs ... was the only guy in the entire church standing.  I prayed for them sincerely to convert, but the Jєωs are attempting to get the entire world to bend the knee to them, and I refuse therefore to bend the knee for them in prayer.
    Indeed. There is also, in the pre-1955 Holy Week, the 12th reading on Holy Saturday that tells the story of Nabuchodonosor and his idol, and he commanded the three young men to bow to his idol and they refused. The Church omits the genuflection after that reading too, because of the mention of the idolatrous genuflection in the reading.

    So is this insulting to idolators that we don't genuflect there either, and should we genuflect there so as not to offend idolators?

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #6 on: April 16, 2022, 03:20:18 PM »
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  • This explanation of Dom Gueranger contains an historical error, but runs as follows:

    Whoa, wait a second there, buddy. I'm not sure we should go around casually accusing Gueranger of error, especially when we're talking about what is written in the gospel. Gueranger could read the gospel just as well as you can, and if that's what he said, then he's the one who is correct here.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #7 on: April 16, 2022, 06:02:04 PM »
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  • Whoa, wait a second there, buddy. I'm not sure we should go around casually accusing Gueranger of error, especially when we're talking about what is written in the gospel. Gueranger could read the gospel just as well as you can, and if that's what he said, then he's the one who is correct here.

    Sorry to scandalize you, but Gueranger’s error is widely acknowledged (unless you take the wider interpretation I suggested):

    It was the Romans who mocked our Lord with genuflection, and any argument to the contrary would be conjecture not supported by revelation.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #8 on: April 16, 2022, 06:13:12 PM »
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  • Sorry to scandalize you, but Gueranger’s error is widely acknowledged (unless you take the wider interpretation I suggested):

    It was the Romans who mocked our Lord with genuflection, and any argument to the contrary would be conjecture not supported by revelation.
    Everyone before has explained it to you and you obviously reject their commonsense response, so I will not go there. Just to ask:

    Why do you bring this subject up? The Church forbade us to genuflect for the Jєωs for who knows how many centuries, do you have a better explanation than Guerranger why we do not genuflect? Or are you calling the no genuflection an error and saying we should all genuflect?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #9 on: April 16, 2022, 07:19:57 PM »
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  • It was the Romans who mocked our Lord with genuflection, and any argument to the contrary would be conjecture not supported by revelation.

    So you limit "Revelation" to Scripture alone?  Have you studied what the Church Fathers may have said about the matter?

    [Your post above implies Sola Scriptura.  Perhaps you should withhold judgment that Dom Gueranger was in error until you've studied the Patristic sources.]

    As others have pointed out, Dom Gueranger was a scholar and he knew more about Scripture AND Tradition than most of us posting on this thread combined.  He very likely had in mind various commentaries from the Fathers on this matter, with which he was very well acquainted.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #10 on: April 16, 2022, 07:38:25 PM »
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  • Here's from the famous Scripture Commentary by Cornelius a Lapide:

    Quote
    Ver. 29. And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon His head. This was done both for insult and for torture. It was done, too, by Jєωιѕн insolence, and not by Pilate’s order, though he permitted it (see above on ver. 25).

    There would appear to be some Tradition that the Jews orchestrated this incident.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #11 on: April 16, 2022, 07:47:25 PM »
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  • St. Jerome rightly points out that the reason this was done was due to the charge brought against him by the Jєωs, that He was the King of the Jєωs.  So the Jєωs are responsible for the incident.

    Quote
    He had been styled King of the Jєωs, and the Scribes and Priests had brought this charge against Him, that He claimed sovereignty over the Jєωιѕн nation; hence this mockery of the soldiers, taking away His own garments, they put on Him a scarlet cloak to represent that purple fringe which kings of old used to wear, for the diadem they put on Him a crown of thorns, and for the regal sceptre give Him a reed, and perform adoration to Him as to a king.

    When Pilate attached the "King of the Jєωs" to the crucifix, that was due to the Roman legal requirement to list the charges, the reason for which a man was being crucified on the cross.  Those were the charges brought by the Jєωs, and the charges were undoubtedly handed over the Roman who were given orders to scourge Our Lord.  So what happened is that they saw the charges and proceeded to perform this mockery of Him as a direct result of the "Jєωιѕн insolence" as Cornelius a Lapide described it.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #12 on: April 16, 2022, 07:59:37 PM »
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  • Everyone before has explained it to you and you obviously reject their commonsense response, so I will not go there. Just to ask:

    Why do you bring this subject up? The Church forbade us to genuflect for the Jєωs for who knows how many centuries, do you have a better explanation than Guerranger why we do not genuflect? Or are you calling the no genuflection an error and saying we should all genuflect?

    So sorry, but "everyone before" me has emotionalized their response, without a single citation to rebut my citation.

    I already explained -before you started crying- the reason we do not genuflect for the Jews.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #13 on: April 16, 2022, 08:00:57 PM »
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  • So you limit "Revelation" to Scripture alone?  Have you studied what the Church Fathers may have said about the matter?

    [Your post above implies Sola Scriptura.  Perhaps you should withhold judgment that Dom Gueranger was in error until you've studied the Patristic sources.]

    As others have pointed out, Dom Gueranger was a scholar and he knew more about Scripture AND Tradition than most of us posting on this thread combined.  He very likely had in mind various commentaries from the Fathers on this matter, with which he was very well acquainted.

    What stupidity.  

    Please rebut the citation I included, and save me your emotional conjecture.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #14 on: April 16, 2022, 08:01:56 PM »
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  • Here's from the famous Scripture Commentary by Cornelius a Lapide:

    There would appear to be some Tradition that the Jєωs orchestrated this incident.

    A less emotional response would acknowledge that I already pointed to that in my OP.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."