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Author Topic: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs  (Read 1948 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2022, 08:03:12 PM »
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  • St. Jerome rightly points out that the reason this was done was due to the charge brought against him by the Jєωs, that He was the King of the Jєωs.  So the Jєωs are responsible for the incident.

    When Pilate attached the "King of the Jєωs" to the crucifix, that was due to the Roman legal requirement to list the charges, the reason for which a man was being crucified on the cross.  Those were the charges brought by the Jєωs, and the charges were undoubtedly handed over the Roman who were given orders to scourge Our Lord.  So what happened is that they saw the charges and proceeded to perform this mockery of Him as a direct result of the "Jєωιѕн insolence" as Cornelius a Lapide described it.

    Once again, the incomprehending emotionalism missses the fact that I have already allowed for this in the OP.  
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #16 on: April 16, 2022, 08:14:33 PM »
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  • So sorry, but "everyone before" me has emotionalized their response, without a single citation to rebut my citation.

    I already explained -before you started crying- the reason we do not genuflect for the Jєωs.
    Who's crying? I am flattered that you talk to me as if I were a contemporary of yours, but in reality I could be your father, so just answer me as you would your father and I'll have the same respect for you. I asked you simple questions. Be so kind as to answer them. 

    Quote
    Why do you bring this subject up? The Church forbade us to genuflect for the Jєωs for who knows how many centuries, do you have a better explanation than Guerranger why we do not genuflect? Or are you calling the no genuflection an error and saying we should all genuflect?


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #17 on: April 16, 2022, 08:21:40 PM »
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  • Who's crying? I am flattered that you talk to me as if I were a contemporary of yours, but in reality I could be your father, so just answer me as you would your father and I'll have the same respect for you. I asked you simple questions. Be so kind as to answer them.


    Dad-

    I already explained to you the reason we don't genuflect for the Jєωs.

    What more do you want?  If you think to refute me, please provide your citations.  If you don't have any (and you don't), what does that indicate to you?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #18 on: April 16, 2022, 08:27:32 PM »
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  • Dad-

    I already explained to you the reason we don't genuflect for the Jєωs. What more do you want? 
    Dear Son,

    I don't see it anywhere, please quote it for me to see.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #19 on: April 16, 2022, 08:29:52 PM »
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  • I don't see it anywhere, please quote it for me to see.

    “Here the flectamus genua is omitted, to remind us that on this day Christ was outraged by the Jєωs with blows, as they shouted ‘prophetiza nobis."  (See p.28)

    https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/01715a_5eb3d5421a714bfa8f60375184df9b5a.pdf

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #20 on: April 16, 2022, 08:36:49 PM »
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  • “Here the flectamus genua is omitted, to remind us that on this day Christ was outraged by the Jєωs with blows, as they shouted ‘prophetiza nobis."  (See p.28)

    https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/01715a_5eb3d5421a714bfa8f60375184df9b5a.pdf
    Ok, now I see, and likely others see it for the first time too. No big deal, the author of your bulletin says his personal opinion of why we do not genuflect. It does not say who he is though. We know Abbot Guerranger and his take on it. No big deal. I believe both. The important point is that we do not genuflect because we never have before Bugnini. 

    Maybe we should mark Liturgical time before Bugnini and after Bugnini, BB and AB?
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #21 on: April 16, 2022, 08:43:08 PM »
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  • We debated this one last year and there was disagreement on who actually did the mock genuflections.



    I believe the mystics are the best guides on this.

    The Roman soldiers participated in the verbal mockery.  It was a large number of them, but they remained in formation.
    They did not directly engage in the crowning, as Mel Gibson depicted.

    If you double-check, the mystics claim that Our Lord was directly abused by slaves. Around 50 participated.

    The same applied to the scouring.  It wasn't Roman soldiers who did it, but slaves. 6 men, in teams of (2), who rotated in the scourging.

    So, who paid the slaves?  Obviously, they were encouraged by the Jєωs to do their worst.

    Anne Catherine Emmerich has the best account of this.

    But there are (3) mystics who's Passion visions overlap and coincide.  (Emmerich, St. Brigid of Sweden, Therese Neumann of Germany).

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #22 on: April 16, 2022, 08:51:38 PM »
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  • Note: It's always convenient for the Jєωs to claim, someone else did it.

    In the 1953 movie "The Robe", Jєω Hollywood, wrote themselves out of the Passion. 
    It was the Romans who did it all, because Our Lord was a dangerous ιnѕυrrєcтισnist.

    The Crucifixion:  "Oh, the Romans did it!"

    Covid-19 "Oh, the Chinese did it!"
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #23 on: April 16, 2022, 08:52:27 PM »
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  • Obviously, they were encouraged by the Jєωs to do their worst.

    From my OP:

    "So Gueranger’s explanation does not hold, unless one wishes to interpret it as meaning the Jєωs were the remote (but direct) cause of Christ having been subjected to Roman mockery, and the genuflections."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #24 on: April 16, 2022, 09:46:41 PM »
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  • Once again, the incomprehending emotionalism missses the fact that I have already allowed for this in the OP. 

    Evidently Lent has not changed you much.  Some of us were defending your rash imputation of error to Dom Gueranger.  You also articulated a Sola Scriptura position in a later post.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #25 on: April 16, 2022, 09:48:03 PM »
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  • What stupidity. 

    Please rebut the citation I included, and save me your emotional conjecture.

    Maybe one year you’ll grow up a little bit as a result of Lent.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #26 on: April 16, 2022, 09:49:17 PM »
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  • Roman soldiers did not crown our Lord with thorns.


    Per Anne Catherine Emmerich

    The bitter Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ – Part 8

    CHAPTER XXVI.
     The Crowning with Thorns.


    No sooner did Sister Emmerich recommence the narrative of her visions on the Passion
    than she again became extremely ill, oppressed with fever, and so tormented by violent
    thirst that her tongue was perfectly parched and contracted; and on the Monday after Mid-
    Lent Sunday, she was so exhausted that it was not without great difficulty, and after many
    intervals of rest, that she narrated all which our Lord suffered in this crowning with thorns.
    She was scarcely able to speak, because she herself felt every sensation which she described
    in the following account:

    Pilate harangued the populace many times during the time of the scourging of Jesus, but
    they interrupted him once, and vociferated, ‘He shall be executed, even if we die for it.’
    When Jesus was led into the guardhouse, they all cried out again, ‘Crucify him, crucify
    him!’

    After this there was silence for a time. Pilate occupied himself in giving different orders to
    the soldiers, and the servants of the High Priests brought them some refreshments; after
    which Pilate, whose superstitious tendencies made him uneasy in mind, went into the inner
    part of his palace in order to consult his gods, and to offer them incense.

    When the Blessed Virgin and the holy women had gathered up the blood of Jesus, with
    which the pillar and the adjacent parts were saturated, they left the forum and went into a
    neighbouring small house, the owner of which I do not know. John was not, I think, present
    at the scourging of Jesus.

    A gallery encircled the inner court of the guardhouse where our Lord was crowned with
    thorns, and the doors were open. The cowardly ruffians, who were eagerly waiting to gratify
    their cruelty by torturing and insulting our Lord, were about fifty in number, and the
    greatest part slaves or servants of the jailers and soldiers.

    The mob gathered round the building, but were soon displaced by a thousand Roman soldiers, who were drawn up in
    good order and stationed there. Although forbidden to leave their ranks, these soldiers
    nevertheless did their utmost by laughter and applause to incite the cruel executioners to
    redouble their insults; and as public applause gives fresh energy to a comedian, so did their
    words of encouragement increase tenfold the cruelty of these men.

    In the middle of the court there stood the fragment of a pillar, and on it was placed a very
    low stool which these cruel men maliciously covered with sharp flints and bits of broken
    potsherds.

    Then they tore off the garments of Jesus, thereby reopening all his wounds; threw
    over his shoulders an old scarlet mantle which barely reached his knees; dragged him to the
    seat prepared, and pushed him roughly down upon it, having first placed the crown of
    thorns upon his head.

    The crown of thorns was made of three branches plaited together, the
    greatest part of the thorns being purposely turned inwards so as to pierce our Lord’s head.
    Having first placed these twisted branches on his forehead, they tied them tightly together at
    the back of his head, and no sooner was this accomplished to their satisfaction than they put
    a large reed into his hand, doing all with derisive gravity as if they were really crowning him
    king. They then seized the reed, and struck his head so violently that his eyes were filled
    with blood; they knelt before him, derided him, spat in his face, and buffeted him, saying at
    the same time, ‘Hail, King of the Jєωs!’ Then they threw down his stool, pulled him up again
    from the ground on which he had fallen, and re-seated him with the greatest possible
    brutality.

    It is quite impossible to describe the cruel outrages which were thought of and
    perpetrated by these monsters under human form. The sufferings of Jesus from thirst,
    caused by the fever which his wounds and sufferings had brought on, were intense.7 He
    trembled all over, his flesh was torn piecemeal, his tongue contracted, and the only
    refreshment he received was the blood which trickled from his head on to his parched lips.
    This shameful scene was protracted a full half-hour, and the Roman soldiers continued
    during the whole time to applaud and encourage the perpetration of still greater outrages.




    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #27 on: April 16, 2022, 09:51:24 PM »
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  • A less emotional response would acknowledge that I already pointed to that in my OP.

    Sure, Sean, citing Cornelius a Lapide and St. Jerome is “emotionalism”.

    It was done with little comment and the only emotionalism here is coming from you ... a classic example of projection.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #28 on: April 16, 2022, 09:56:35 PM »
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  • So sorry, but "everyone before" me has emotionalized their response, without a single citation to rebut my citation.

    Um, ... I cited Gueranger. I consider him a solid authority.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Omitting the Genuflection for the Jєωs
    « Reply #29 on: April 16, 2022, 09:59:21 PM »
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  • Roman soldiers did not scourge Our Lord at the Pillar.


    Per Anne Catherine Emmerich


    CHAPTER XXII.

    The Scourging of Jesus.

    That most weak and undecided of all judges, Pilate, had several times repeated these
    dastardly words: ‘I find no crime in him: I will chastise him, therefore, and let him go;’ to which the
    Jєωs had continued to respond, ‘Crucify him! Crucify him!’ but he determined to adhere to his
    resolution of not condemning our Lord to death, and ordered him to be scourged according
    to the manner of the Romans. The guards were therefore ordered to conduct him through
    the midst of the furious multitude to the forum, which they did with the utmost brutality, at
    the same time loading him with abuse, and striking him with their staffs. The pillar where
    criminals were scourged stood to the north of Pilate’s palace, near the guard-house, and the
    executioners soon arrived, carrying whips, rods, and ropes, which they tossed down at its
    base. They were six in number, dark, swarthy men, somewhat shorter than Jesus; their
    chests were covered with a piece of leather, or with some dirty stuff; their loins were girded,
    and their hairy, sinewy arms bare. They were malefactors from the frontiers of Egypt, who
    had been condemned for their crimes to hard labour, and were employed principally in
    making canals, and in erecting public buildings, the most criminal being selected to act as
    executioners in the Praetorium.

    These cruel men had many times scourged poor criminals to death at this pillar. They
    resembled wild beasts or demons, and appeared to be half drunk. They struck our Lord with
    their fists, and dragged him by the cords with which he was pinioned, although he followed
    them without offering the least resistance, and, finally, they barbarously knocked him down
    against the pillar.

    This pillar, placed in the centre of the court, stood alone, and did not serve
    to sustain any part of the building; it was not very high, for a tall man could touch the
    summit by stretching out his arm; there was a large iron ring at the top, and both rings and
    hooks a little lower down. It is quite impossible to describe the cruelty shown by these
    ruffians towards Jesus: they tore off the mantle with which he had been clothed in derision
    at the court of Herod, and almost threw prostrate again.

    Jesus trembled and shuddered as he stood before the pillar, and took off his garments as
    quickly as he could, but his hands were bloody and swollen. The only return he made when
    his brutal executioners struck and abused him was, to pray for them in the most touching
    manner: he turned his face once towards his Mother, who was standing overcome with
    grief; this look quite unnerved her: she fainted, and would have fallen, had not the holy
    women who were there supported her. Jesus put his arms round the pillar, and when his
    hands were thus raised, the archers fastened them to the iron ring which was at the top of
    the pillar; they then dragged his arms to such a height that his feet, which were tightly
    bound to the base of the pillar, scarcely touched the ground. Thus was the Holy of Holies
    violently stretched, without a particle of clothing, on a pillar used for the punishment of the
    greatest criminals; and then did two furious ruffians who were thirsting for his blood begin
    in the most barbarous manner to scourge his sacred body from head to foot. The whips or
    scourges which they first made use of appeared to me to be made of a species of flexible
    white wood, but perhaps they were composed of the sinews of the ox, or of strips of leather.

    Our loving Lord, the Son of God, true God and true Man, writhed as a worm under the
    blows of these barbarians; his mild but deep groans might be heard from afar; they
    resounded through the air, forming a kind of touching accompaniment to the hissing of the
    instruments of torture. These groans resembled rather a touching cry of prayer and
    supplication, than moans of anguish.

    The clamour of the Pharisees and the people formed
    another species of accompaniment, which at times as a deafening thunder-storm deadened
    and smothered these sacred and mournful cries, and in their place might be heard the
    words, ‘Put him to death!’ ‘Crucify him!’ Pilate continued parleying with the people, and when
    he demanded silence in order to be able to speak, he was obliged to proclaim his wishes to
    the clamorous assembly by the sound of a trumpet, and at such moments you might again
    hear the noise of the scourges, the moans of Jesus, the imprecations of the soldiers, and the
    bleating of the Paschal lambs which were being washed in the Probatica pool, at no great
    distance from the forum. There was something peculiarly touching in the plaintive bleating
    of these lambs: they alone appeared to unite their lamentations with the suffering moans of
    our Lord.

    The Jєωιѕн mob was gathered together at some distance from the pillar at which the
    dreadful punishment was taking place, and Roman soldiers were stationed in different parts
    round about. Many persons were walking to and fro, some in silence, others speaking of
    Jesus in the most insulting terms possible, and a few appearing touched, and I thought I
    beheld rays of light issuing from our Lord and entering the hearts of the latter. I saw groups
    of infamous, bold-looking young men, who were for the most part busying themselves near
    the watch-house in preparing fresh scourges, while others went to seek branches of thorns.

    Several of the servants of the High Priests went up to the brutal executioners and gave them
    money; as also a large jug filled with a strong bright red liquid, which quite inebriated them,
    and increased their cruelty tenfold towards their innocent Victim. The two ruffians
    continued to strike our Lord with unremitting violence for a quarter of an hour, and were
    then succeeded by two others.

    His body was entirely covered with black, blue, and red
    marks; the blood was trickling down on the ground, and yet the furious cries which issued
    from among the assembled Jєωs showed that their cruelty was far from being satiated.
    The night had been extremely cold, and the morning was dark and cloudy; a little hail
    had fallen, which surprised everyone, but towards twelve o’clock the day became brighter,
    and the sun shone forth.

    The two fresh executioners commenced scourging Jesus with the greatest possible fury;
    they made use of a different kind of rod,—a species of thorny stick, covered with knots and
    splinters. The blows from these sticks tore his flesh to pieces; his blood spouted out so as to
    stain their arms, and he groaned, prayed, and shuddered. At this moment, some strangers
    mounted on camels passed through the forum; they stopped for a moment, and were quite
    overcome with pity and horror at the scene before them, upon which some of the bystanders
    explained the cause of what they witnessed. Some of these travellers had been baptised by
    John, and others had heard the sermon of Jesus on the mountain. The noise and the tumult
    of the mob was even more deafening near the house of Pilate.

    Two fresh executioners took the places of the last mentioned, who were beginning to
    flag; their scourges were composed of small chains, or straps covered with iron hooks,
    which penetrated to the bone, and tore off large pieces of flesh at every blow. What word,
    alas! could describe this terrible—this heartrending scene!

    The cruelty of these barbarians was nevertheless not yet satiated; they untied Jesus, and
    again fastened him up with his back turned towards the pillar. As he was totally unable to
    support himself in an upright position, they passed cords round his waist, under his arms,
    and above his knees, and having bound his hands tightly into the rings which were placed at
    the upper part of the pillar, they recommenced scourging him with even greater fury than
    before; and one among them struck him constantly on the face with a new rod. The body of
    our Lord was perfectly torn to shreds,—it was but one wound. He looked at his torturers
    with his eyes filled with blood; as if entreating mercy; but their brutality appeared to
    increase, and his moans each moment became more feeble.

    The dreadful scourging had been continued without intermission for three quarters of an
    hour, when a stranger of lowly birth, a relation to Ctesiphon, the blind man whom Jesus
    had cured, rushed from amidst the crowd, and approached the pillar with a knife shaped
    like a cutlass in his hand. ‘Cease!’ he exclaimed, in an indignant tone; ‘Cease! Scourge not
    this innocent man unto death!’ The drunken miscreants, taken by surprise, stopped short,
    while he quickly severed the cords which bound Jesus to the pillar, and disappeared among
    the crowd. Jesus fell almost without consciousness on the ground, which was bathed with
    his blood.

    The executioners left him there, and rejoined their cruel companions, who were
    amusing themselves in the guardhouse with drinking, and plaiting the crown of thorns.
    Our Lord remained for a short time on the ground, at the foot of the pillar, bathed in his
    own blood, and two or three bold-looking girls came up to gratify their curiosity away in
    disgust, but at the moment the pain of the wounds of Jesus was so intense that he raised his
    bleeding head and looked at them. They retired quickly, and the soldiers and guards
    laughed and made game of them.

    During the time of the scourging of our Lord, I saw weeping angels approach him many
    times; I likewise heard the prayers he constantly addressed to his Father for the pardon of
    our sins—prayers which never ceased during the whole time of the infliction of this cruel
    punishment.

    Whilst he lay bathed in his blood I saw an angel present to him a vase
    containing a bright-looking beverage which appeared to reinvigorate him in a certain
    degree. The archers soon returned, and after giving him some blows with their sticks, bade
    him rise and follow them. He raised himself with the greatest difficulty, as his trembling
    limbs could scarcely support the weight of this body; they did not give him sufficient time to
    put on his clothes, but threw his upper garment over his naked shoulders and led him from
    the pillar to the guardhouse, where he wiped the blood which trickled down his face with a
    corner of his garment. When he passed before the benches on which the High Priests were
    seated, they cried out, ‘Put him to death! Crucify him! Crucify him!’ and then turned away
    disdainfully.

    The executioners led him into the interior of the guardhouse, which was filled
    with slaves, archers, hodmen, and the very dregs of the people, but there were no soldiers.
    The great excitement among the populace alarmed Pilate so much, that he sent to the
    fortress of Antonia for a reinforcement of Roman soldiers, and posed these well-disciplined
    troops round the guard-house; they were permitted to talk and to deride Jesus in every
    possible way, but were forbidden to quit their ranks. These soldiers, whom Pilate had sent
    for to intimidate the mob, numbered about a thousand.



    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi