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Author Topic: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?  (Read 680 times)

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Offline Miser Peccator

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Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
« on: August 29, 2021, 03:43:10 AM »
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    • I'm curious about views on whether grace is still received in a Novus Ordo eucharist.  Would you receive a host from a Novus Ordo Mass in an emergency?

    I understand the issue of irreverence and abuse of course.

    If dying and a Novus Ordo priest brought it to you would you refuse?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #1 on: August 29, 2021, 06:43:18 AM »
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    • I would not, but I would receive absolution from a NO priest if I were in danger of death.  Receiving an NO communion is participation in the NOM.

    I consider NO priests to be doubtful but one may receive doubtful Sacraments in danger of death.
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    Offline xavierpope

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #2 on: August 29, 2021, 07:07:17 AM »
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    • The fact that Satanists still steal NO holy communion, makes me think it is the body of Christ.

    So yes, I would receive the Eucharist from NO priest.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #3 on: August 29, 2021, 07:14:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 29, 2021, 06:43:18 AM
    I would not, but I would receive absolution from a NO priest if I were in danger of death.  Receiving an NO communion is participation in the NOM.

    I consider NO priests to be doubtful but one may receive doubtful Sacraments in danger of death.
    Assuming proper form, matter, and intention, as well as a validly ordained priest, I can't see any reason the Novus Ordo communion could not be received.  Even Archbishop Lefebvre and, if I'm not mistaken, Bishop Williamson, asserted that the Novus Ordo is per se valid.  (There could be many per accidens exceptions.)

    I fail to see how material cooperation in the Novus Ordo apparatus, could trump reception of the sacrament at least in danger of death.  If one were dying, and the only Eucharist available, were from Eastern Orthodox schismatics or Oriental Orthodox (two different things), would he not receive?  (OTOH, there is no question as to whether Orthodox sacraments are valid --- or is there?)

    The only pitfall I can see, WRT "receiving doubtful sacraments", is that in receiving a doubtfully valid Eucharist, one is worshiping what is possibly a round cracker as Lord and God of the Universe, whereas when one receives absolution or extreme unction, there is no question of potential idolatry or artolatry.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #4 on: August 29, 2021, 08:00:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on August 29, 2021, 03:43:10 AM
    I'm curious about views on whether grace is still received in a Novus Ordo eucharist.  Would you receive a host from a Novus Ordo Mass in an emergency?

    I understand the issue of irreverence and abuse of course.

    If dying and a Novus Ordo priest brought it to you would you refuse?
    IMHO, at best it would be the same as making a spiritual communion. There would be graces in that. 
    At worst, you would receive under doubt which I think may be sinful.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #5 on: August 29, 2021, 08:20:12 AM »
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    • I would reject even doubtlessly valid sacraments from heretics, even in danger of death.

    As far as I am aware, there is no recommendation to accept such.

    St. Hermenegild was in that situation and rejected.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #6 on: August 29, 2021, 09:00:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 29, 2021, 08:20:12 AM
    I would reject even doubtlessly valid sacraments from heretics, even in danger of death.

    As far as I am aware, there is no recommendation to accept such.

    St. Hermenegild was in that situation and rejected.
    So you would die without valid sacraments, just because a heretic is administering them?

    Even baptism?

    Can't go there with you, sorry.  Even the pre-V2 Church allowed this.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #7 on: August 29, 2021, 10:03:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on August 29, 2021, 09:00:26 AM
    So you would die without valid sacraments, just because a heretic is administering them?

    Even baptism?

    Can't go there with you, sorry.  Even the pre-V2 Church allowed this.

    I am baptised (shortly before NO + conditional), and we got perfect contrition and spiritual communion.

    And yes, I prefer to follow the example of St. Hermenegild.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #8 on: August 29, 2021, 10:28:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 29, 2021, 08:20:12 AM
    I would reject even doubtlessly valid sacraments from heretics, even in danger of death.

    As far as I am aware, there is no recommendation to accept such.

    St. Hermenegild was in that situation and rejected.
    I agree with you Marion.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #9 on: August 29, 2021, 10:45:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 29, 2021, 08:20:12 AM
    I would reject even doubtlessly valid sacraments from heretics, even in danger of death.

    As far as I am aware, there is no recommendation to accept such.

    St. Hermenegild was in that situation and rejected.
    Yeah, it would bother my conscience too much. Just think what the devil could/would do with that! He'd start tempting you to despair, since you probably missed many Masses in your life due to lack of Tridentine Mass option. It's basically burning the single grain of incense to false gods, or when Rome demanded that +ABL say "just one" Novus Ordo Mass. Doing so would condemn your past life.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #10 on: August 29, 2021, 10:52:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 29, 2021, 10:03:48 AM
    I am baptised (shortly before NO + conditional), and we got perfect contrition and spiritual communion.

    And yes, I prefer to follow the example of St. Hermenegild.
    Obviously you are.  I should have been more clear, that I had in mind a theoretical case, where a person would not have yet been baptized, desired to be, but had no one except a heretic to baptize him.

    The constant teaching of the Church, for many centuries now, if I'm not mistaken, is that anyone --- even an atheist --- can baptize in an emergency.
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    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #11 on: August 29, 2021, 02:25:13 PM »
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    • Thank you for bringing this topic up. It was one I also have thought about—a little story concerning this matter. Years ago, one of the independent priests who said mass at the current chape I attend had been ill for quite some time.

     In the last few days of his life, he was hospitalized.  A Novus Ordo priest came into his room and asked if he was a Catholic priest and wanted to receive Extreme Unction from him. He answered yes. The next day he passed away.  I have always found this story interesting. The Lord was working in ways that are not of our understanding. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #12 on: August 29, 2021, 02:58:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: xavierpope on August 29, 2021, 07:07:17 AM
    The fact that Satanists still steal NO holy communion, makes me think it is the body of Christ.

    So yes, I would receive the Eucharist from NO priest.

    :facepalm:

    So you prefer to trust a handful of low-level, probably moronic, Satanists ... over theological considerations?

    To be honest, you don't hear a lot about Satanists stealing hosts of any kind anymore.  That's probably because they have their own line of Holy Orders from the many Satanists that have infiltracted the hierarchy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #13 on: August 29, 2021, 03:09:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on August 29, 2021, 08:20:12 AM
    I would reject even doubtlessly valid sacraments from heretics, even in danger of death.

    As far as I am aware, there is no recommendation to accept such.

    St. Hermenegild was in that situation and rejected.

    What are you talking about?  St. Pius X approved of Catholics in schismatic/heretic territories (e.g. Orthodox areas) who had no access to the Catholic Mass to receive the Sacraments from the Orthodox.

    It is the Catholic Church alone who has rights over the Sacraments, and the Church commands that the schismatics/heretics give them to Catholics ... not that they would be inclined to comply.  By receiving the Blessed Sacrament, moreover, you are preventing reception by a heretic/schismatic, who might otherwise receive.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Novus Ordo Eucharist In Emergency?
    « Reply #14 on: August 29, 2021, 04:10:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 29, 2021, 03:09:06 PM
    What are you talking about?  St. Pius X approved of Catholics in schismatic/heretic territories (e.g. Orthodox areas) who had no access to the Catholic Mass to receive the Sacraments from the Orthodox.

    It is the Catholic Church alone who has rights over the Sacraments, and the Church commands that the schismatics/heretics give them to Catholics ... not that they would be inclined to comply.  By receiving the Blessed Sacrament, moreover, you are preventing reception by a heretic/schismatic, who might otherwise receive.

    You are right, I read Marion’s post incorrectly. I thought he was referring to doubtful NO sacraments.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?
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