Author Topic: New English Translation Of Latin Mass A Disgrace! (Read 2259 times)

JimofPennsylvania · « **on:** November 28, 2011, 09:27:38 AM »

The Catholic Church in America has many great bishops but collectively U.S. bishops acted like a bunch of idiots accepting this new english translation of the Latin Mass. This new translation is like a joke one sits in Mass hearing this new translation and your like I can't believe the U.S. bishops allowed this to take place this is terrible. These guys are supposed to be sheppards their a bunch of nitwits!

The Mass is an activity that people should be fully engaged in they should be following what is going on moment by moment. This implies that the writings for which the priests and people attending the Mass are reciting are understandable are readily followable to ordinary people. It should be a given that the writings of the Mass are in plain spoken english and readily understandable and followable and give the participants of the Mass the full dignity they are entitled to as children of God! If one looks at some of these new changes in the writings of the Mass they are nonsensical, not plain spoken and stilted to list some of the shortcomings. The purpose of the Mass should not be that it is a liturgy written for scholars but rather for the faithful to bring them closer to God and help them know, love and serve him in a better manner! Let us look at some of the examples.

For the new greeting the priest says "the lord be with you" and the people say "and with your spirit". People don't talk like this, the old response was right "and also with you". For the people don't want the Lord to be with just the priest's spirit but rather with the priest's whole person. The same perception lies for the sign of peace and the concluding rite responses.

For the new Penitential Act participants are supposed to say " I confess to almighty God etc. that I have "greatly" sinned in my thoughts and in my words etc. through my most grievous faults etc.. This is nonsensical what the church is asking the participants to say here is that they have committed mortal sin the definition of a mortal sin is a serious sin a great sin a most grievous sin. Let us hope that many young catholics have not committed mortal sin so the church should stop having them make false statement which this new translation does and even for older Catholics that have committed mortal sin in their lives but have long ago went to confession over the matter it is really stupid for the Church to raise that past serious sin thereby opening the door for them to all the possibly bad things connected with that sin, prudence calls for leaving some doors closed, the church should go back to the old translation.

In the new Nicene Creed it says in the body of the prayer "For us men and for our salvation he (Jesus) came down from heaven and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and become man". This is hard for ordinary people to follow a well written writing would involve the following "by the Holy Spirit was made incarnate in the womb of the Virgin Mary etc.".

The new lamb of god prayers entails that the priest says "Behold the Lamb of God etc." and the people say "Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed". This is idiotic it insults the dignity of the faithful to ask them to recite this prayer. The old response was right, "Lord I am not worthy to receive you but only say the words and my soul shall be healed".

If the U.S. bishops have the power they should fix the problems created by this new english translation of the latin and if they don't they should collectively write the Pope and make it clear to him that the Holy See is doing a bad job here is not performing its mission well in forcing this new translation upon the American Church and emphatically call for this problem to be quickly remedied!

Man of the West · « **Reply #1 on:** November 28, 2011, 11:12:13 AM »

Please watch your run-on sentences and homonyms, and your points will be better received. That being said, I agree with you that the new translation is no good, but not for the reasons you cite. You appear to be defending the old Novus Ordo rite. I defend neither the old Novus Ordo nor the new Novus Ordo, but in point of fact the new translation really is closer to the Latin.

For example, you said "And with your spirit" is not a proper response to "The Lord be with you." Actually, that is the correct response and has been from time immemorial. Et cuм spiritu tuo does not render as "And also with you" without doing violence not only to the Latin language, but also to the entire inner meaning of this particular dialogue. The phrase "And with your spirit" is not meant to refer to the priest's own spirit, considered as an individual man, but to the annointing of the Holy Spirit that he received at his Ordination; i.e. to the spirit he has been given which enables him to funtion in the role of a priest. This locution preserves the sense of the faithful that the power to confect the Eucharist resided not in the priest qua man but in the apostolic succession which continuously forms new priestly vessels out of the mortal men who are called to that office. It is "the Spirit of Pentecost," poured as it were from one chalice to another, and made present for us in our particular celebrant, whom we honor by saying Et cuм spiritu tuo; and not the priest's human spirit.

The [old] Novus Ordo rite destroyed this sense of reverence for the Holy Spirit and replaced the inner meaning of the form with a sort of greeting, a "hail fellow well-met," exchanged between the celebrant and the congregation. That is how the phrase "And also with you" registers in the minds of those who hear it in the vernacular. This was one of the intentions of the Conciliar reformers (i.e. to make the mass a celebration of humanity rather than God), and it seems to be this distorted sense of the mass which you are defending in your post. In that respect at least, the [new] Novus Ordo rite is a change for the better.

I think that this new translation is indeed a very positive development. Not because it makes the Novus Ordo "more acceptible to God" (for that is impossible), but because it will have a winnowing effect on the Conciliar Church. Thos who dislike the new translation will eventually find themselves formally departing from Conciliar Catholicism, while those who understand the truths embodied in the new changes will eventually find themselves wondering why anything was ever changed in the first place and will beat a path to the nearest TLM.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: In thirty or forty years, there probably won't even be a Novus Ordo.

TKGS · « **Reply #2 on:** November 28, 2011, 12:19:37 PM »

I agree with JimofPennsylvania. The prior English version of the Novus Ordo was much more suited to the Protestants who generally attend that liturgy.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #3 on:** November 28, 2011, 01:27:34 PM »

Quote from: Man of the West

I defend neither the old Novus Ordo nor the new Novus Ordo, but in point of fact the new translation really is closer to the Latin.

[snip]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: In thirty or forty years, there probably won't even be a Novus Ordo.

I agree with not defending the old NO or the new NO.

Ecclesiastical Latin is especially sacred as the language of Holy Mother Church. If I am correct, there was never any intent to place the words of the Mass on the same level as everyday life.

It does not even need to be understood by the common man, does it? Surely we have Catholic saints who could neither read nor write.

Restoration has to start somewhere, and I am all for it. This may not be so huge for those of us who assist at TLM for years on end, but I figure it must be the fruits of so many prayers and penances offered over the last 50 years.

Sigismund · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2011, 08:12:46 PM »

Wow. With this new poster, I am no longer the forum member furthest to the left. :wink:

s2srea · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2011, 09:34:24 PM »

@Sigi

Canuk the Lionheart · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2011, 10:31:10 PM »

Quote from: JimofPennsylvania

The Catholic Church in America has many great bishops but collectively U.S. bishops acted like a bunch of idiots accepting this new english translation of the Latin Mass. This new translation is like a joke one sits in Mass hearing this new translation and your like I can't believe the U.S. bishops allowed this to take place this is terrible. These guys are supposed to be sheppards their a bunch of nitwits!
Quote

I know, it's absolutely terrible that the American Catholic Bishops actually agreed to using a more accurate translation of the Novus Ordo (a translation -for what it's worth- more accurately reflects the Catholic Faith). It's a far cry from the glory of championing illegals, administering the Blessed Sacrament to Protestants, engaging in scandalous ecuмenical "dialogue", permitting reiki in nunnerys and turning a blind eye to sex abuse... who knows this new translation might just be the final nail in the coffin! And lets not even get started on those valid words of consecration!

The Mass is an activity that people should be fully engaged in they should be following what is going on moment by moment. This implies that the writings for which the priests and people attending the Mass are reciting are understandable are readily followable to ordinary people. It should be a given that the writings of the Mass are in plain spoken english and readily understandable and followable and give the participants of the Mass the full dignity they are entitled to as children of God! If one looks at some of these new changes in the writings of the Mass they are nonsensical, not plain spoken and stilted to list some of the shortcomings. The purpose of the Mass should not be that it is a liturgy written for scholars but rather for the faithful to bring them closer to God and help them know, love and serve him in a better manner! Let us look at some of the examples.
Quote

Aside from just committing an anathema ( the suggestion that the Mass should be totally in the vernacular was condemned as heretical by Trent), you have just raised an interesting thought... how to get people more involved in the Mass? Surely this generation can't possibly do as their fathers did and come to understand the Theology of the Mass...

For the new Penitential Act participants are supposed to say " I confess to almighty God etc. that I have "greatly" sinned in my thoughts and in my words etc. through my most grievous faults etc.. This is nonsensical what the church is asking the participants to say here is that they have committed mortal sin the definition of a mortal sin is a serious sin a great sin a most grievous sin. Let us hope that many young catholics have not committed mortal sin so the church should stop having them make false statement which this new translation does and even for older Catholics that have committed mortal sin in their lives but have long ago went to confession over the matter it is really stupid for the Church to raise that past serious sin thereby opening the door for them to all the possibly bad things connected with that sin, prudence calls for leaving some doors closed, the church should go back to the old translation.
Quote

We are sinners, it's a fact no matter how hard people try to gloss over it these days. We need to recognize this, repent and confess if we have any intention of entering the Kingdom of God. Perhaps if this fact is brought to light more often, the confessionals wouldn't be practically empty every week! Seriously Christ died for OUR sins, the whole point of the Mass is that it is the perfect Sacrifice of god the Son to the Father, for the remission of our sins!

The new lamb of god prayers entails that the priest says "Behold the Lamb of God etc." and the people say "Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed". This is idiotic it insults the dignity of the faithful to ask them to recite this prayer. The old response was right, "Lord I am not worthy to receive you but only say the words and my soul shall be healed".

How on Earth does this degrade the "dignity" of the laity? It is yet another admission that we are sinners, and despite this Jesus invites us to become united with Him! Who actually deserves such an honor? I dare say that before the eyes of God even the most exalted king is but a spiritual leper in need of God's grace! As a note, this is a quote from the Roman Centurion who Christ said had more faith than any in Israel (Mtth. 8:8), how exactly is this an "insult" to the laity?

ps. my apologies regarding the poor "quotes" rubric I have here... I'm a tad bit of a Luddite.

Canuk the Lionheart · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2011, 10:34:49 PM »

Lighthouse · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2011, 10:49:30 PM »

Just goes to show how deeply the developments of the Second Vatican Assembly have skewed and skewered the Faith.

So I feel honored to be on the same forum with a man of Jim's moral rectitude. Maybe we need a "level 6" to enshrine such accomplishment.

And also add a level zero for me, as I have sinned.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #9 on:** November 29, 2011, 08:42:20 AM »

It's not the new translations that are the problem. It's the whole Novus Ordo!