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Author Topic: Necessity of The Holy Trinity  (Read 1067 times)

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Offline spouse of Jesus

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Necessity of The Holy Trinity
« on: December 28, 2009, 08:29:35 AM »
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  •   We say that God is a necessary being. But I wonder if His being a Trinity is a necessity or not. Could God choose to be a dulaity or just one person if He wanted?
      I know the doctorine of Trinity of God and believe in it. I just wonder if The Second Person owes His being to God The Father who begget Him. Could God The father decide not to begget Him? Could God choose to be more than Three?


    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #1 on: December 28, 2009, 10:49:46 PM »
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  • I believe the Trinity is the most efficacious way for God to work through us and in us.

    I reason like this:  God is Our Father because He is the Creator of everything, the Father of all that exists. Why couldn't He be seen as a mother, then, the way some pagan peoples imagine the creator god? First, because a mother creates a baby out of her own substance. She and the baby are one until the baby is born. This is unlike the way that God created us. He created us out of a substance that is separate from Him:  matter. As science has shown, this matter, or atoms, is the same material that all of God's Creation is made out of. God, however, is not made out of atoms. In other words, we, and the rest of Creation, are not made out of the same stuff as God.

    Secondly, think about the Incarnation. If God were a mother, how would He have been a parent to Jesus? Would a mortal human have served as the Father? The thought is quite revolting! We know that Jesus's conception was planned from the beginning of time, so God knew that Jesus would have to have an earthly mother and a Heavenly Father in order to unite the human and divine natures.

    At the same time, in order to avoid God having to "mate" with Mary, as the pagans believed happened with their gods and humans, a third agent is needed. This agent must be equal to God and part of the Godhead but able to act without the Other Two having to appear to us. This agent is the Holy Spirit. Imagine if God were one single entity, as Muslims believe. This would mean that in the Incarnation, Mary would in a sense have been impregnated by her own son! Clearly this is also unacceptable!

    So we see that three Persons are needed to complete God's work. Why not four or five or ninety-six? I suppose because of God's own economy. So many persons are not needed and in fact might be confusing for us to comprehend. After all, the poor Muslims, and a few Protestants, are confused with just three!

    That's my own weak manner of understanding it, anyway. I'm sure some of our other members can contribute something if they're not too busy arguing about how many antipopes there really are.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 11:50:00 PM »
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  • Well, I don't have a Mass to go to right now.  Otherwise I'd love to sit and chat about fun things like the Trinity, to indulge in speculation.  But until I have a Mass to go to, I will continue blasting away at heresies -- or are they just errors? -- until some priest out there decides to step out of the pack and become Catholic.

    But you described it well, St. Jude.  I thought the Trinity is supposed to be a mystery, but you just did some de-mystifying.  I guess the mysterious element comes into play when, as a mortal, you try to envision one God in three Persons.  How does the Holy Ghost look in heaven, for instance?  And will God the Father and God the Son be separate in terms of physical space?  They must be, because Christ is at the right hand of the Father.  Yet they're the same Godhead.    

    But to answer Spouse's question about the Trinity being necessary, yes and no.  God being all-powerful theoretically could have chosen another way.  He could have theoretically chosen another woman besides Mary to be His Mother as well.  Yet the Word was before time was.  In that sense, there could have been no other way, but you must understand that this isn't due to a limitation of God's power, but just because this was how He always knew He was going to do it.  Or that is my understanding at this point.

    Here's what I don't get -- in the Bible it speaks of the Word being "in the beginning."  But how could God have a beginning?  Isn't he eternal?
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #3 on: December 29, 2009, 12:30:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Well, I don't have a Mass to go to right now.  Otherwise I'd love to sit and chat about fun things like the Trinity, to indulge in speculation.  But until I have a Mass to go to, I will continue blasting away at heresies -- or are they just errors? -- until some priest out there decides to step out of the pack and become Catholic.


    Sorry, I couldn't resist the opportunity to take a quick jab. :rolleyes:

    Quote from: Raoul76
    But you described it well, St. Jude.  I thought the Trinity is supposed to be a mystery, but you just did some de-mystifying.  I guess the mysterious element comes into play when, as a mortal, you try to envision one God in three Persons.  How does the Holy Ghost look in heaven, for instance?  And will God the Father and God the Son be separate in terms of physical space?  They must be, because Christ is at the right hand of the Father.  Yet they're the same Godhead.    

    But to answer Spouse's question about the Trinity being necessary, yes and no.  God being all-powerful theoretically could have chosen another way.  He could have theoretically chosen another woman besides Mary to be His Mother as well.  Yet the Word was before time was.  In that sense, there could have been no other way, but you must understand that this isn't due to a limitation of God's power, but just because this was how He always knew He was going to do it.  Or that is my understanding at this point.


    He could have chosen another way, but He didn't. Therefore the Trinity must have been the most perfect way, either for Him or for us; more likely for us, so that we could get a grip on it, I imagine.

    Quote from: Raoul76
    Here's what I don't get -- in the Bible it speaks of the Word being "in the beginning."  But how could God have a beginning?  Isn't he eternal?


    I think Genesis is referring to the beginning of Time and Creation, in other words, our beginning. It's another way for us to grasp it in our own feeble little minds.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 12:47:31 AM »
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  • I should add that there's still a lot of mystery left in the Trinity. I do notice that the particular grouping of the Trinity--Father and Son and Holy Ghost--is not mentioned in the Bible until the Annunciation. That's what gives me the idea that our need to know about and believe in the Trinity is based on the fact of the Incarnation and helps us to understand It.

    The next time we see the Trinity is at Jesus's Baptism in the Jordan River. There we have the Father above, booming out, "This is My Son, in Whom I am well pleased," at the same time as we see the Son standing at the river's edge, and simultaneously the Holy Spirit descending on Him in the form of a dove. Exactly what happened there would not be so clear without knowledge of the Triune God.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.


    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 01:04:17 AM »
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  • I forgot to mention that I may have spoken in error in the first post when I said, "Imagine if God were one single entity..." Of course, God is one single being, or entity. I was trying to find a synonym for "Persons" in that sentence but I don't know if the Church has used some other word in its place. Any other word, such as "entities," "aspects," "manifestations," etc. would seem to open the door to heretical interpretations.
    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
    pray for us.

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #6 on: December 30, 2009, 05:07:05 AM »
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  •   But God The Father could perhaps chose not to have a Son. Couldn't He? So I wonder if The Son owes His being to Him?

    Offline Jehanne

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #7 on: December 30, 2009, 07:18:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
     We say that God is a necessary being. But I wonder if His being a Trinity is a necessity or not. Could God choose to be a dulaity or just one person if He wanted?
      I know the doctorine of Trinity of God and believe in it. I just wonder if The Second Person owes His being to God The Father who begget Him. Could God The father decide not to begget Him? Could God choose to be more than Three?


    I think that it is kind of like asking if God could choose not to exist.  Since God is immutable, then, no, he could not choose to be not infinite, not omnipresent, not omniscient, not good, not loving, etc.  Since God has always existed and has no cause, He must have always been triune in nature.


    Offline Caio di Corea

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #8 on: December 30, 2009, 03:43:41 PM »
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  • From Catechism of St. Robert Bellarmine:


    DEclare vnto me now the se|cond article; what signify|eth: And in Iesus Christ his onely Sonne our Lord?
    M
    The same God omnipotent, of whom wee haue spoken in the first article, hath one true and naturall Sonne, who is called Iesus Christ, & that you may see in some sort howe God hath begotten this Sonne; take the example of a looking-glasse [mirror] , whē one doth looke in a glasse, presently he produceth an Image of himselfe, so like as no difference can be found in so much as it is not onely like in shape, but in moouing also: for that if the man mooue, the Image wil also mooue, and this Image be|ing so like, is not made by any labour, neither is it long in ma|king, nor with instruments, but in a moment, and with one looke onely. In like manner, you haue Page  21to thinke, that God beholding him selfe, with the eye of vnderstanding, in the glasse of his Diuinitie, doth produce an Image most like vnto him selfe. And because God hath geuen vnto this Image al his owne substance & his owne being (which wee can not do in beholding our selues in a glasse) therefore that I|mage is the true Sonne of God, al|beit our Images which wee see in glasses are not our sonnes. Hereof you must gather, that the Sonne of God is God, as the Father, and one the same God with the father, see|ing he hath the same substance that his Father hath: furthermore, you haue together that the Son of God is not yonger then his Father, but was alwaies as his father alwaies was because he was begotten by Gods only beholding himselfe, and God hath alwaies beholden him-selfe. Lastly, you haue togeather, that the Page  22Sonne of God was not begotten, with help of a woman, nor in length of time, nor in delight of concupi|scence, nor any other imperfection, because, as it hath bin said, hee was begotten of the Father alone, by the only beholding himselfe, with the most pure eye of his diuine vnder|standing.

    Offline oldavid

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    Necessity of The Holy Trinity
    « Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 05:37:55 AM »
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