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Author Topic: Moral Certitude?  (Read 1227 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Moral Certitude?
« on: June 26, 2021, 08:44:02 PM »
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    • What is moral certitude defined as in regards to attending masses and receiving sacraments? I might go to SSPX tomorrow but I personally feel iffy about Lienart but believe the orders to be valid but wouldn't go to SSPX for confirmation or any sacrament that bestows a seal on the soul except baptism. However I acknowledge validity is presumed unless proven otherwise and there is no way to prove Lienart withheld his intention.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #1 on: June 26, 2021, 08:57:18 PM »
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    • You’re way overthinking it.  Not your job.  Just pray, go to mass and get closer to God.  For you, at this time in your life, all the rest is a distraction.  
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #2 on: June 26, 2021, 09:13:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 26, 2021, 08:57:18 PM
    You’re way overthinking it.  Not your job.  Just pray, go to mass and get closer to God.  For you, at this time in your life, all the rest is a distraction.  
    That's mindless: "Not your job.  Just pray, go to mass ... "


    We have to use the brain God gave us, to act rationally. In the case of sacraments we have to do without in case of any doubt. And that doesn't depend on seal or not seal.

    Cryptinox, you have to get rid of your doubts, or relinquish. There is no alternative.

    Your decision to be a Catholic needs your own personal conscious consent.
    Your decision to reject the Novus Ordo needs your own personal conscious consent.
    Your decision to receive sacraments wherever needs your own personal conscious consent.

    You'll be judged, we all will be.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #3 on: June 26, 2021, 10:32:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on June 26, 2021, 09:13:26 PM
    That's mindless: "Not your job.  Just pray, go to mass ... "


    We have to use the brain God gave us, to act rationally. In the case of sacraments we have to do without in case of any doubt. And that doesn't depend on seal or not seal.

    Cryptinox, you have to get rid of your doubts, or relinquish. There is no alternative.

    Your decision to be a Catholic needs your own personal conscious consent.
    Your decision to reject the Novus Ordo needs your own personal conscious consent.
    Your decision to receive sacraments wherever needs your own personal conscious consent.

    You'll be judged, we all will be.
    I am not sure if this is positive or negative doubt as it can't be proven. I plan on going to eastern tomorrow just cause of this.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #4 on: June 26, 2021, 10:53:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on June 26, 2021, 10:32:30 PM
    I am not sure if this is positive or negative doubt as it can't be proven. I plan on going to eastern tomorrow just cause of this.
    I don't understand what you're saying: "going to eastern".

    Whatever: You have to have moral certitude that the thing you do is right.

    You can't shoot in direction X if your not sure that there is no innocent child in direction X. And you can't receive sacraments, if your not sure that you're receiving valid sacraments in a God pleasing manner.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #5 on: June 26, 2021, 11:01:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on June 26, 2021, 10:53:34 PM
    I don't understand what you're saying: "going to eastern".

    Whatever: You have to have moral certitude that the thing you do is right.

    You can't shoot in direction X if your not sure that there is no innocent child in direction X. And you can't receive sacraments, if your not sure that you're receiving valid sacraments in a God pleasing manner.
    I wasn't planning on receiving the Eucharist. By going to eastern I meant an eastern rite liturgy.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #6 on: June 26, 2021, 11:11:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on June 26, 2021, 08:44:02 PM
    What is moral certitude defined as in regards to attending masses and receiving sacraments? I might go to SSPX tomorrow but I personally feel iffy about Lienart but believe the orders to be valid but wouldn't go to SSPX for confirmation or any sacrament that bestows a seal on the soul except baptism. However I acknowledge validity is presumed unless proven otherwise and there is no way to prove Lienart withheld his intention.

    I used to be concerned about Lienart's ordinations too, since he is said to have died bragging about his sabotage of Holy Orders.

    But, Matthew advised that as a fail safe to this doubt, +ABL was provided a proper ordination with his episcopal Consecration.

    The SSPX problems now revolve around their acceptance of Novus ordo formed priests without giving them conditional ordination rites.
    This and their regularization with the Pachamama pope are serious items to watch out for.

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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #7 on: June 26, 2021, 11:16:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on June 26, 2021, 11:01:10 PM
    I wasn't planning on receiving the Eucharist. By going to eastern I meant an eastern rite liturgy.

    Conciliar Sect eastern rite liturgy? These are people confessing the "faith" of the "Bishop of Rome", Mr. Bergolio.

    I reject them, since they confess the "faith" of the mocker of Christ and Christians Jorge Bergolio.

    You, like we all, have to form your conscience based on Church teaching, and then follow your conscience.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #8 on: June 26, 2021, 11:22:16 PM »
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    • Like I said, you need to read Pieper's The Cardinal Virtues (and the sections on prudence and fortitude in particular).

    Then after that, you need to read Heliotropium.

    You have no confidence in God, and no ability to abandon yourself to Him.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #9 on: June 26, 2021, 11:32:30 PM »
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    • Crypto, have you addressed your scruples with an SSPX priest?  You’re on the verge of home alone-ism.  You have your “doubts” about every single place you’ve walked into.  I have advised you before to stop theologizing and start praying ... and above all see a priest ASAP about this problem.

    Marion, your having told this extremely scrupulous person that he must resolve his doubts is idiotic.

    Even if Lienart somehow in his mind withheld his intention, the Sacraments he conferred were valid because he intended to DO what the Church DOES.  To say that it can be invalidated by internal intention is like saying that you can hold a loaded gun up to someone’s head, pull the trigger but then think “I don’t mean for him to die” ... and in that manner escape culpability for murder.  If you will the cause, you will the effect ... despite any attempt at mental reservation.  If you confect the Sacrament according to the Rite prescribed by the Church, it’s valid whether you want it to be or not.
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    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #10 on: June 26, 2021, 11:46:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on June 26, 2021, 08:44:02 PM
    What is moral certitude defined as in regards to attending masses and receiving sacraments? I might go to SSPX tomorrow but I personally feel iffy about Lienart but believe the orders to be valid but wouldn't go to SSPX for confirmation or any sacrament that bestows a seal on the soul except baptism. However I acknowledge validity is presumed unless proven otherwise and there is no way to prove Lienart withheld his intention.
    I would be more worried about all the moves ordo priests running around as they used the new rite which sspx accepts.  Also the whole una cuм thing really bothers me personally, very likely is some type of sacrilege, seriously who in good conciscence can say they are in union with bergoglio?
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #11 on: June 26, 2021, 11:49:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 26, 2021, 11:32:30 PM
    Marion, your having told this extremely scrupulous person that he must resolve his doubts is idiotic.

    That's basic Church teaching. Form your conscience and then follow it. Read St. Thomas Aquinas!

    Tissier de Mallerais explained about his theory of supplied jurisdiction. The priest receives jurisdiction from the layman asking for sacraments in a situation of need. Whether the theory is fine or not, the layman has to first make his mind up, and consequently is responsible for the consequences.

    You seem to presuppose that SSPX is something like a default-solution. Well, then we'd be better off to follow the Novus Ordo.
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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #12 on: June 26, 2021, 11:53:08 PM »
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    • My point is: every single person has to decide whether he confesses the Faith. Every single person has to decide whether he follows the Novus Ordo, the SSPX, or the SSPX resistance, or some sedevacantist or whomever.

    You can't run around and preach that your own solution is the right thing. You can't put your own decision onto the conscience of another Catholic.
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #13 on: June 27, 2021, 12:01:00 AM »
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    • Cryptinox,
    The advice given by Sean & Ladislaus in this thread is solid. Please listen to them.
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    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Moral Certitude?
    « Reply #14 on: June 27, 2021, 12:17:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on June 27, 2021, 12:01:00 AM
    Cryptinox,
    The advice given by Sean & Ladislaus in this thread is solid. Please listen to them.
    Why?
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)
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