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Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: exleftist on May 06, 2017, 10:08:38 PM

Title: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: exleftist on May 06, 2017, 10:08:38 PM
So I'm trying to figure out which Missal is best for a Latin Mass and it turns out I have an old one from 1955 which is in quite good condition still.

However, in going through the week's readings, I noted that May 11 (my birthday coincidentally) has a slightly different calendar than the one listed here for 1962: http://www.tridentinecatholic.com/cal2017.pdf

In the 1962 missal, May 11 is Saints Philip and James Apostles. In my 1955, it's St. Lucia Filippini, Virgin.

In the 1955 on May 31 it's St. Angela of Merici, Virgin. In the 1962 it's The Blessed Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven and Earth Commemoration of St. Petronilla Virgin.

So I'm going to guess this 1955 is worthless.

So should I purchase a 1962 or a 1958? This is getting confusing.
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 06, 2017, 10:26:30 PM
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When you seek out a Traditional Latin Mass, you'll find they all still use the old calendar, so your 1955 missal will be just fine for those chapels and Masses.  I've been using a 1945 Fr. Lasance Missal for several decades, and there is no end in sight. I know lots of Catholics who use them. It's probably the most commonly found still in use. BTW it's the one used to make the calendar you've linked to in the OP.
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If you go to Indult Mass, they'll use the new calendar. So it all depends where you go to Mass.
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Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: Nadir on May 06, 2017, 11:25:17 PM
So I'm trying to figure out which Missal is best for a Latin Mass and it turns out I have an old one from 1955 which is in quite good condition still.

However, in going through the week's readings, I noted that May 11 (my birthday coincidentally) has a slightly different calendar than the one listed here for 1962: http://www.tridentinecatholic.com/cal2017.pdf

In the 1962 missal, May 11 is Saints Philip and James Apostles. In my 1955, it's St. Lucia Filippini, Virgin.

In the 1955 on May 31 it's St. Angela of Merici, Virgin. In the 1962 it's The Blessed Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven and Earth Commemoration of St. Petronilla Virgin.

So I'm going to guess this 1955 is worthless.

So should I purchase a 1962 or a 1958? This is getting confusing.
Keep your 1955 Missal. It is still good. Saints' feasts vary and are not set in cement, for instance if you go to Mass at a Carmelite chapel you might find that they are celebrating a Carmelite saint, ditto for the Benedictines, the Dominicans etc. Saints can also vary from country to country. Besides there are far too many saints for one/day!
My New Sunday Missal celebrates Saints Philip and James Apostles on May 11, while my New Roman Missal 1945 reprint has no saint for that day (?) so hang on till you know more about it.
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: TKGS on May 07, 2017, 01:22:09 PM
Each of these missals is acceptable and which missal you use for any given Mass would mostly depend upon what missal the chapel uses.  The missal you have is just fine and is used by many traditional chapels.  For the most part you can use the missal you have for Sunday Masses even when you attend a chapel that uses a different missal.

I would not get rid of your missal and purchase another one only if you really want to.
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: shin on May 07, 2017, 01:44:59 PM
Before deciding find out which one the chapel you are going to uses. If you can get that exact one it will help a lot to keep you on the same page as everyone else. . .
 
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: songbird on May 07, 2017, 03:48:21 PM
The missals that use "you" instead of "thy", are the modernized.  I don't care for them.
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: TKGS on May 07, 2017, 03:51:36 PM
The missals that use "you" instead of "thy", are the modernized.  I don't care for them.
There are missals that use "you" instead of "thy"?  I've never seen one of these.  That's interesting.
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: CathMomof7 on May 12, 2017, 04:38:06 PM
So I'm trying to figure out which Missal is best for a Latin Mass and it turns out I have an old one from 1955 which is in quite good condition still.

However, in going through the week's readings, I noted that May 11 (my birthday coincidentally) has a slightly different calendar than the one listed here for 1962: http://www.tridentinecatholic.com/cal2017.pdf

In the 1962 missal, May 11 is Saints Philip and James Apostles. In my 1955, it's St. Lucia Filippini, Virgin.

In the 1955 on May 31 it's St. Angela of Merici, Virgin. In the 1962 it's The Blessed Virgin Mary Queen of Heaven and Earth Commemoration of St. Petronilla Virgin.

So I'm going to guess this 1955 is worthless.

So should I purchase a 1962 or a 1958? This is getting confusing.
Keep the missal you have.  It is not worthless and new missals can be very expensive.  I use a Fr. Lasance 1945 Missal, which is what our priest uses, but my daughter uses a 1958 Marian Missal, and my husband uses a 1962 Missal that we purchased when attending SSPX.  
Title: Your best missal for the Latin Mass is the Holy Rosary.
Post by: White Wolf on May 12, 2017, 06:37:18 PM
Believe it or not, it used to be against the code of canon law for Catholic laity to own vernacular translations of the missal.  Traditionally this was frowned upon.  During the pontificate of Leo XIII, this tenant was widely ignored.  Then, along came Pius X, and suddenly what was frowned upon was positively encouraged.  (Perhaps Pius X was sponsored by Desclee and Co, which, surprise! is a Belgium company.  You know, Amsterdam, ancient seat of European Jєωry...but I digress.)  The missal is a distraction.  The pewgoers are more worried about following the Mass than praying the Mass.  The Missal gave rise to the "dialog mass". precursor to the Novus Ordo.  (I can smell something burning- the tempers of a lot of "fifties fogies" who think that all the evils of liturgical anarchy date from Vat 2 and Good Pope John... but I digress.)  

The Most Holy Rosary is your Mass, your Office, your Rule, and your Enclosure...

Your Mass, because the Rosary will take you to the Foot of the Cross, which is the Mass.
Your Office, because the 150 Hail Marys contain the wisdom of the 150 psalms.  The Rosary is Our Lady's Psalter.
Your Rule, because, as all monks have a rule (the most famous being the Holy Rule of St Benedict, lots of wisdom there even for laymen, for all Christians are called to be "Monastic") and through the Rosary Our Lady will give you "signal graces", signals that will help keep your boat afloat in your particular place and circuмstances.
Your enclosure, because the Rosary will you give you peace no matter where you reside on the stormy sea of this life.

Once upon a time, I was a Missal Catholic.  Been there, done that.  After a few months, I found the Missal to be a distraction.  Missal Catholics are more worried about whether they are ahead or behind the priest than whether they are really prayerful.  If you find yourself being buffeted by distractions, it is probably because you are too immersed in the world.

Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us, you are our only hope.
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: Matto on May 12, 2017, 07:01:27 PM
I was vaguely aware that the laity using a missal with the vernacular was a new thing but I did not know it used to be forbidden. I only used a missal during Mass one time. I prefer just watching the priest and listening. I don't want to stare at a book the whole time during the Mass. I own a Missal but I never use it at Mass, I only use it at home to read prayers.
Title: Re: Your best missal for the Latin Mass is the Holy Rosary.
Post by: Nadir on May 12, 2017, 07:31:59 PM
Believe it or not, it used to be against the code of canon law for Catholic laity to own vernacular translations of the missal.  Traditionally this was frowned upon.  During the pontificate of Leo XIII, this tenant was widely ignored.  Then, along came Pius X, and suddenly what was frowned upon was positively encouraged.  (Perhaps Pius X was sponsored by Desclee and Co, which, surprise! is a Belgium company.  You know, Amsterdam, ancient seat of European Jєωry...but I digress.)  
Your post is one long digression. Exleftist asked about what Missal he should acquire, not whether or not he should use a missal in Mass.
Can you give a reference for your claim that the code of canon law used to be against Catholic laity owning a vernacular translations of the missal?

By the way, the word is "tenet" not "tenant", and Amsterdam is not in Belgium. 
Title: Reply to Nadir
Post by: White Wolf on May 12, 2017, 08:16:32 PM
Two quotes for you:


Recently I was reading a portion of Walter W. Whitehouse's The Musical Prelude to Vatican II: Plainchant, Participation, and Pius X (http://etd.nd.edu/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-04172008-124519/unrestricted/WhitehouseW042008D_Vol1.pdf) in which he remarks with surprise about that pope's progressive attitudes:
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Pius published a catechism and prayerbook for the Catholic laity of Rome in 1905 . . . which included the full Ordinary and Canon of the Mass, and recommended the Mass-text as the preferred prayers for Sunday use. This was only eight years after the vernacular translation of the Missal had come off the Index of Forbidden Books!
Is that right?

I poked around a little bit. In Where Thousands Fell (1995), William J. Leonard, S.J. offers these recollections:
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In any case, I remember that when I arrived at the novitiate I was asked if I had brought a missal.

"A missal?" I said, "What's that?" 

I had spent four years in a Catholic high school and never heard the word. But that was in 1925, before the hand missal became popular. We had prayer-books -- The Key of Heaven for girls and The Young Men's Guide for boys -- which contained devotions for various occasions and sometimes even the Epistles and Gospels for the Sundays. No publisher, as far as I know, however, and brought out a complete missal in translation. Actually, the prohibition against printing a translation of the Latin Canon had been dropped from the Index of Forbidden Books only twenty-five years before.

Many people who call themselves "Traditional" really have a lot to learn.
Peace!!! :cheers:  (It's the tranquility of order)
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us, you are our only hope.
Title: Postscript... Amsterdam... Belgium
Post by: White Wolf on May 12, 2017, 08:25:26 PM
Greetings.
I know this off topic for the post.  I never said Amsterdam was in Belgium.  But, last time I consulted a map, the two were in very close proximity.
Okay, in future posts I will try and be more angelic with technical details.
I don't want to get into a shooting war here.

"If you asked Traditional Catholics to form a firing squad, they would make a circle"- Michael Matt

Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us, you are our only hope.
Title: Re: Reply to Nadir
Post by: Meg on May 12, 2017, 09:12:26 PM


I poked around a little bit. In Where Thousands Fell (1995), William J. Leonard, S.J. offers these recollections:Many people who call themselves "Traditional" really have a lot to learn.


Well, we Traditionalists may have a lot to learn, but not from the likes of William J. Leonard S.J., who was a big proponent of liturgical reform and the New Mass. You should find better sources for your assertions. 
Title: Re: Your best missal for the Latin Mass is the Holy Rosary.
Post by: Nadir on May 12, 2017, 09:46:43 PM
Can you give a reference for your claim that the code of canon law used to be against Catholic laity owning a vernacular translations of the missal?
I expressed myself poorly. I should say: Can you give a reference from Canon Law, for your claim that the code of canon law is against Catholic laity owning a vernacular translations of the missal?

Thank you.
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: TKGS on May 13, 2017, 06:21:11 AM
Canon 1385 identifies the rules for what books must be submitted for ecclesiastical censorship.  According to A Commentary on the New Code of Canon Law by the Rev. P. Chas. Augustine, O.S.B., D.D., published in 1918, missals are not forbidden to the laity, though they must be approved prior to being published:


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Liable to censorship are furthermore: large and small prayer-books and devotional, catechetical, moral, ascetical, mystical, and the like books and pamphlets, even though they seem to foster piety. To this class belong Bible histories, missals with vernacular translation, catechisms, lives of Saints, the Imitation of Christ, and similar books.

The Church most certainly did not forbid the lay faithful to own copies of missals.  The claim that, "believe it or not, it used to be against the code of canon law for Catholic laity to own vernacular translations of the missal," seems to be a reworking of the calumny against the Church by Protestants who claim that the Church used to forbid the lay faithful to read the bible.  Where do you get your information about Canon Law, from Jack Chick anti-Catholic tracts?
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: Spera in Deo on May 13, 2017, 03:52:09 PM
In response to the original poster; I came into Tradition 6&1/2 years ago with a St. Andrews missal (1943) and have used it ever since.  I love it.  It is 100% in line with all feast days and everything else.
Title: To Nadir on the code of canon law...
Post by: White Wolf on May 13, 2017, 07:20:38 PM
A reference from the code of canon law is going to be nearly impossible to find.  As you probably know, "canon law" was only codified by Pius X in 1914. (published in 1917, which is why it is called the 1917 code as opposed to the 1983 code.)  But there are many citations in the jumble of codes pre-1917 that forbade lay Catholics from owning copies of the missal in Latin, let alone illegal vernacular copies.  But why reference canon law in the first place? Holy Mother Church got along quite well without any canon law at all, and the first rudiments of canons come to us only from the year 1234, which could be seen as the beginning of the decline and fall of Christendom.  Have you not ever read where "The letter of the law kills, but the spirit gives life"? Modern man loves his laws.  We love speed limits and examination of consciences and cookbooks.  But do Catholics know that Canon Law ranks low in God's book, behind Divine Law, Natural Law, and Customary Law, with next coming Canon Law and then Civil Law.  We live in a society where everything is flipped on its head.  People act as though there is no such thing as the 6th Commandment yet God forbid they fudge income tax returns or not have car insurance!  
Look what Missals have done to the Church.  I have seen a zillion missal-brandishing "trads" berate the priest on this and that, or tell me why the Mass was invalid, or comment on the priest not doing this or that right.  I saw "trads" in the FSSP upset when they had their "dialog" Mass taken away.  I have seen them fight over whether to kneel or sit at the epistle, I have seen them butt in with prayers at exposition, and on and on...  I hear this attitude all the time that if one is not following the priest word for word one is not fully participating in the Mass.  I have been told in the SSPX I must have a missal by the Pius XII nαzιs... and etc.  

Did Our Lady of Fatima say something about Missals in her apparitions? Sorry but I missed that.

Talk about Missals of Mass Distraction.  :laugh2:

Instead of looking for chapter and verse quotes from Canon Law so you can be like Ensign Parker berating Captain Binghamton, try to consider the principle and foundation of the canons in the first place.  Our Lord said that by their fruits we would know them.  Now, the missal might be an excellent tool for Novus Ordo newbies to appreciate the Traditional Mass as opposed to Bugnini Lite, and certainly I got a lot out of the prayers early on, using (horror of horrors) a 1965 missal before acquiring the politically correct version, but then I grew in my Faith and moved on.

The attitude we should have to the liturgy is summed well in the introit to the dedication of a church.  

William J Leonard SJ was indeed a flaming liberal, Meg, but I was using it as a reference.  I would trust that even Jєωs know basic math.  Learn how to discern knowledge.  I know many simplistic Trads who say "John XXIII, bad; Pius XII, good."  I'm certain that if Pius XII had added St Joe to the canon, the SSPX, even in the good 'ol days (And I was there, at district headquarters in the '90's) would have been bubbling with enthusiasm, and if it would have been "Good Pope John" who had deleted 7 readings from the Easter Vigil, they would still be howling with indignation.

On this 100th anniversary of the first apparition:
Our Lady of Fatima, Pray for us, you are our only hope.

Title: Re: To Nadir on the code of canon law...
Post by: TKGS on May 13, 2017, 07:35:15 PM
A reference from the code of canon law is going to be nearly impossible to find.  As you probably know, "canon law" was only codified by Pius X in 1914. (published in 1917, which is why it is called the 1917 code as opposed to the 1983 code.)  But there are many citations in the jumble of codes pre-1917 that forbade lay Catholics from owning copies of the missal in Latin, let alone illegal vernacular copies.  
If there are a "jumble of codes", you should be able to identify just one papal bull or other Vatican docuмent that forbade lay Catholics from owning copies of a missal.  If you can't, then, I will conclude that you made it up, or you heard it from some unreliable source.  Either way, it's a lie.
I will await your correction.  Pending that, all CathInfo members should be aware that White Wolf should not be trusted as his comments on any subject are probably just made up decptions designed to calumniate the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: To Nadir on the code of canon law...
Post by: JezusDeKoning on May 13, 2017, 07:39:36 PM
If there are a "jumble of codes", you should be able to identify just one papal bull or other Vatican docuмent that forbade lay Catholics from owning copies of a missal.  If you can't, then, I will conclude that you made it up, or you heard it from some unreliable source.  Either way, it's a lie.
I will await your correction.  Pending that, all CathInfo members should be aware that White Wolf should not be trusted as his comments on any subject are probably just made up decptions designed to calumniate the Catholic Church.
He also hasn't yet made a single coherent thought. He just rambles.
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 13, 2017, 09:07:14 PM
I've never heard of any rule (or "code") in the Church that forbade Catholics from using a missal at Mass many years in the past, such as over 120 years ago. 
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Before the printing press, altar missals were hand copied, obviously, so they were very expensive, if they could be purchased at all.  After Gutenberg, altar missals could be printed, which explains why Pope St. Pius V gave out the Bull  Quo Primum, which forbade anyone for all time to prohibit a Roman rite priest from saying Mass according to his 1570 missal.  But there is no prohibition in that Bull for Catholics from using such a missal for personal use while assisting at Mass.  They were all in Latin, though, so one would not have any vernacular translation printed on the page.  It's conceivable that someone could translate the prayers and use their own copy while at Mass, and I don't think there was ever any ruling against such a practice. 
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This reminds me of a man I know who habitually and loudly flips pages in his hand missal, one at a time, during Mass. The noise of pages flipping is a distraction to others (like me).
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Certainly if a priest goes to Mass he would be able to follow along in the pew by using his own altar missal. But I've never seen a priest doing that. I have a priest's altar missal from pre-WWII that is designed for traveling, and it fits just fine in the hands.  It may have been used for Mass on the battlefield. It's a little larger than most hand missals, but not a whole lot larger, about 5" x 8".  It wouldn't look out of place if someone were holding that while in the pews at Mass. 
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All that aside, there are times when I have had a missal with me at Mass but have not used it, and have prayed the Rosary instead. But generally, it is helpful to at least read the propers for the Mass of the day, if I can find it, that is. Sometimes which Mass is being read at the altar is a matter of confusion, and I have spent most of my time in the pew trying to figure it out. It seems to me that's a waste of important prayer time.
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When you are not sure of what Mass is being said, or when you don't have the correct Mass prayers in front of you for whatever reason, you can certainly use Mass prayers from some similar Mass especially one from the same season or week. When in doubt, you can defer to the Feria (which is the Mass from the previous Sunday).
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Today, for example, the Feast Day of Our Lady of Fatima, is not a Mass found in the Fr. Lasance Missal. Therefore, you could substitute St. Robert Bellarmine, Bishop, Confessor and Doctor of the Church, May 13th.  I really don't think Our Lady would mind!! 
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Or next month, on June 13th, you could use St. Anthony of Padua, Confessor and Doctor of the Church.  Of course, if you're in Portugal, you would use "St. Anthony of Lisbon!" (Portuguese call him St. Anthony "of Lisbon" not "of Padua" and remember, Our Lady said that in Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved!) 
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Title: Re: To Nadir on the code of canon law...
Post by: Nadir on May 15, 2017, 12:15:03 AM
A reference from the code of canon law is going to be nearly impossible to find.  As you probably know, "canon law" was only codified by Pius X in 1914. (published in 1917, which is why it is called the 1917 code as opposed to the 1983 code.)  But there are many citations in the jumble of codes pre-1917 that forbade lay Catholics from owning copies of the missal in Latin, let alone illegal vernacular copies.  But why reference canon law in the first place? 
It was YOU who fabricated the claim that vernacular Missals were forbidden in the Code of Canon Law. IF any such prohibition exists then present it. Otherwise stop fantasizing and leading people astray with your fantasies.
Title: Re: Your best missal for the Latin Mass is the Holy Rosary.
Post by: roscoe on May 15, 2017, 01:45:38 AM
Believe it or not, it used to be against the code of canon law for Catholic laity to own vernacular translations of the missal.  Traditionally this was frowned upon.  During the pontificate of Leo XIII, this tenant was widely ignored.  Then, along came Pius X, and suddenly what was frowned upon was positively encouraged.  (Perhaps Pius X was sponsored by Desclee and Co, which, surprise! is a Belgium company.  You know, Amsterdam, ancient seat of European Jєωry...but I digress.)  The missal is a distraction.  The pewgoers are more worried about following the Mass than praying the Mass.  The Missal gave rise to the "dialog mass". precursor to the Novus Ordo.  (I can smell something burning- the tempers of a lot of "fifties fogies" who think that all the evils of liturgical anarchy date from Vat 2 and Good Pope John... but I digress.)  

The Most Holy Rosary is your Mass, your Office, your Rule, and your Enclosure...

Your Mass, because the Rosary will take you to the Foot of the Cross, which is the Mass.
Your Office, because the 150 Hail Marys contain the wisdom of the 150 psalms.  The Rosary is Our Lady's Psalter.
Your Rule, because, as all monks have a rule (the most famous being the Holy Rule of St Benedict, lots of wisdom there even for laymen, for all Christians are called to be "Monastic") and through the Rosary Our Lady will give you "signal graces", signals that will help keep your boat afloat in your particular place and circuмstances.
Your enclosure, because the Rosary will you give you peace no matter where you reside on the stormy sea of this life.

Once upon a time, I was a Missal Catholic.  Been there, done that.  After a few months, I found the Missal to be a distraction.  Missal Catholics are more worried about whether they are ahead or behind the priest than whether they are really prayerful.  If you find yourself being buffeted by distractions, it is probably because you are too immersed in the world.

Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us, you are our only hope.
I add my vote to those who have disliked this post :sleep:
Title: Re: Missal for Latin Mass
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2017, 09:23:58 AM
This is retarded.  The missal is better than the rosary, hands down.  You're reading the prayers of the mass - the highest and greatest prayer!  What could be better?