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Author Topic: Marriage vows and domestic abuse  (Read 8568 times)

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Offline Nadir

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Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2022, 09:36:28 PM »
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  • I was going through boxes in the garage and stumbled upon a paper I saved.  On it were notes on this topic when I was speaking with a trad bishop:

    If the spouse or his family knew he had an abusive tendency prior to marriage and neither he nor his family mentioned it, there would be grounds for annulment because committing severe abuse is an insanity and, therefore, the nature of the person was not presented fully prior to marriage.

    I hope this clarifies things.  I don't think it is common, but it does happen.
    What is the name of the trad bishop you were speaking with?

    It is highly unlikely that a spouse will reveal an abusive tendency that is not already apparent. I wonder why you say that severe abuse is insanity. You can pretty safely say that severe abuse is grave sin, but not grounds for annulment.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #46 on: August 28, 2022, 02:43:55 PM »
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  • What is the name of the trad bishop you were speaking with?

    It is highly unlikely that a spouse will reveal an abusive tendency that is not already apparent. I wonder why you say that severe abuse is insanity. You can pretty safely say that severe abuse is grave sin, but not grounds for annulment.


    Probably a "garage bishop". You know, any priest with the right connections COULD become a bishop. And the path from layman to priest CAN BE equally slick and quick, in this wild-west world of Tradition.

    Why is a man's opinion or advise automatically worth more, just because he's been consecrated Bishop and he follows pre-Vatican II liturgy, morality, theology, and philosophy? It's not like he gets special graces of state to not err, to be a great theologian, or to have the best/most Catholic opinion on every matter. The Pope didn't choose him. He has no jurisdiction; any "Trad" bishops are just sacrament-dispensers, who operate under emergency supplied jurisdiction.

    Just look at Fr. Pfeiffer. He got himself consecrated*, even though he has committed public sins against fellow priests, is working with a warlock, his "seminary" is a laughing-stock, etc. There is much to criticize on a moral level, even from older and sober priests like Fr. Voigt, who aren't going to raise a fuss about "nothing". They stick to real issues when they raise their voice.

    Now this is not as much of a problem in larger or more well-organized groups (Resistance, SSPX, even the Indult groups like FSSP) because they require long training for the priesthood. But you have lots of vagus and wandering bishops and priests, and it's very small task, physically speaking, to ordain or consecrate someone. To consecrate/ordain a GOOD, SUITABLE candidate? That's a whole different matter.


    *His public consecration video showed grave defects in the ceremony. This was solid evidence for defect of form. His later claim that it was "re-done" was inadequate, as no video was released for that.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #47 on: August 28, 2022, 02:49:48 PM »
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  • Not to speak ill of the dead, but a certain priest was infamous for claiming that assisting at a Mass "Una cuм Papa nostro N..." was the same as being "one with his heresy(ies)". He taught that Catholics cannot attend a Mass offered "Una cuм". Which is RIDICULOUS to any well-educated Catholic. Before this priest came along, sedevacantists had no problems assisting at Tridentine Masses offered by valid priests. But this priest really divided the Traditional world -- for his own benefit. Power and $$$.

    This self-serving teaching of his ("Oh darn! I guess my parishioners can't go to the other competing chapels in Cincinnati -- of which there are SEVERAL! I guess I will just have to enjoy more control over them now...") was novel to the extreme, and was quite cult-like in its inspiration. Rather like a cult leader saying he personally talks to God, and "today God told me that 14 year old Sally and 15 year old Mandy are to join my harem..."

    This priest didn't do it for Pleasure, he did it for Power. But in both cases, the motives were base and self-serving.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #48 on: August 28, 2022, 05:54:28 PM »
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  • Not to speak ill of the dead, but a certain priest was infamous for claiming that assisting at a Mass "Una cuм Papa nostro N..." was the same as being "one with his heresy(ies)". He taught that Catholics cannot attend a Mass offered "Una cuм". Which is RIDICULOUS to any well-educated Catholic. Before this priest came along, sedevacantists had no problems assisting at Tridentine Masses offered by valid priests. But this priest really divided the Traditional world -- for his own benefit. Power and $$$.

    This self-serving teaching of his ("Oh darn! I guess my parishioners can't go to the other competing chapels in Cincinnati -- of which there are SEVERAL! I guess I will just have to enjoy more control over them now...") was novel to the extreme, and was quite cult-like in its inspiration. Rather like a cult leader saying he personally talks to God, and "today God told me that 14 year old Sally and 15 year old Mandy are to join my harem..."

    This priest didn't do it for Pleasure, he did it for Power. But in both cases, the motives were base and self-serving.
    Yes, not to speak ill of the dead.  :facepalm:

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #49 on: August 28, 2022, 07:50:39 PM »
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  • Yes, not to speak ill of the dead.  :facepalm:
    My thoughts, exactly!


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #50 on: October 08, 2022, 11:54:25 PM »
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  • What is the name of the trad bishop you were speaking with?

    Bumping this thread because epiphany refused to answer the question.

    He's persistently promoted a false Modernist notion of what can justify an annulment.  Several posters have corrected him, but he's ignored it, arrogantly responding that he's "pointed out" the opposite (citing the 1983 Code of Canon Law but clearly without any understanding of what even that was saying).

    Finally, he attributes his erroneous opinion to a "Traditional Bishop".

    When interrogated about which bishop, he refuses to answer.

    So this is one of the charges against him I made on another thread that he claimed was slanderous.

    Several posters repeatedly tried to correct him on this point, and he's arrogantly and pertinaciously refused to accept correction, but then ends up trying to slander some nameless "Traditional Bishop" as the originator of his theories.

    He's consistently promoted misandry on this forum, making absurdly false claims such as that the courts were stacked against women in divorce scenarios, that many Traditional men physically abuse their wives, but the priests and most of the congregation "derided" them for considering a separation.

    These are all slanderous claims against Traditional Catholicism in general, and backed up by zero evidence.

    Name the bishop who told you than an "undisclosed violent temper" is grounds for annulment.  Name the "priests  and congregation [aka the chapel]" who derided a woman for seeking a separation in the wake of physical abuse.  Otherwise, your assertions are nothing less than a general slander against the Traditional movement.

    You've also at another time asserted that most Traditional young men want to find wives who would support them so they would not have to work.

    I've got verbatim citations with dates and timestamps for all these statements of yours that you recently claimed were ALL FALSE and slanderous, and a fair number of them were made on this thread here.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #51 on: October 08, 2022, 11:56:36 PM »
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  • Probably a "garage bishop".

    Probably no bishop at all.  It's most likely entirely made up ... just like he makes up that there's widespread physical abuse of their wives and children by Traditional Catholic men, that the divorce courts favor men and are stacked against women, that Traditional young men are looking for girls they can marry who will work while they stay home, etc. etc. etc.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #52 on: October 09, 2022, 08:07:02 PM »
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  • Bumping this thread because epiphany refused to answer the question.

    He's persistently promoted a false Modernist notion of what can justify an annulment.  Several posters have corrected him, but he's ignored it, arrogantly responding that he's "pointed out" the opposite (citing the 1983 Code of Canon Law but clearly without any understanding of what even that was saying).

    Finally, he attributes his erroneous opinion to a "Traditional Bishop".

    When interrogated about which bishop, he refuses to answer.

    So this is one of the charges against him I made on another thread that he claimed was slanderous.

    Several posters repeatedly tried to correct him on this point, and he's arrogantly and pertinaciously refused to accept correction, but then ends up trying to slander some nameless "Traditional Bishop" as the originator of his theories.

    He's consistently promoted misandry on this forum, making absurdly false claims such as that the courts were stacked against women in divorce scenarios, that many Traditional men physically abuse their wives, but the priests and most of the congregation "derided" them for considering a separation.

    These are all slanderous claims against Traditional Catholicism in general, and backed up by zero evidence.

    Name the bishop who told you than an "undisclosed violent temper" is grounds for annulment.  Name the "priests  and congregation [aka the chapel]" who derided a woman for seeking a separation in the wake of physical abuse.  Otherwise, your assertions are nothing less than a general slander against the Traditional movement.

    You've also at another time asserted that most Traditional young men want to find wives who would support them so they would not have to work.

    I've got verbatim citations with dates and timestamps for all these statements of yours that you recently claimed were ALL FALSE and slanderous, and a fair number of them were made on this thread here.

    Just because I choose not to answer does not mean my statements are false.

    You are a Feeneyite heretic who does not belong on any Catholic forum.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #53 on: October 09, 2022, 08:39:29 PM »
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  • Just because I choose not to answer does not mean my statements are false.

    You continuously slander Traditional Catholicism, making absurd claims that priests deride women seeking separation from physicallly abusive husbands, that Trad young men are looking for wives who will support them so they won't have to work, etc.

    Unless you name names and it can be verified (people have a right to know who this allegedly ignorant bishop is so he can be avoided), your statement is to be considered a bald-faced lie to justify your error.  You know full well why you won't name him.  Because if someone were to write to him (if he even exists), they'd find out that you lied, as he would deny having said any such thing.

    Similarly, name the Trad chapel with the priest and the faithful who derided a woman who was considering a separation due to physical abuse.  They too should be called out for such abhorrent behavior.  Except, you know what, you're full of crap and no such Traditional chapel exists.  NO Traditional Catholic I know of and NO Traditional Catholic priest I've ever known would deride a woman seeking separation due to physical abuse.

    Here is yet another grave error to which you pertinaciously cling, and which you promote, despite having, on this thread been corrected by multiple posters (who are not Feeneyites by the way).

    All you have is your "Feeneyite heretic" crap.  Your heresy about unborn infants who don't receive Baptism being saved has absolutely nothing to do with Feeneyism.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #54 on: October 09, 2022, 08:46:19 PM »
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  • You continuously slander Traditional Catholicism, making absurd claims that priests deride women seeking separation from physicallly abuse husbands, that Trad young men are looking for wives who will support them so they won't have to work, etc.

    Unless you name names and it can be verified (people have a right to know who this allegedly ignorant bishop is so he can be avoided), your statement is to be considered a bald-faced lie to justify your error.  You know full well why you won't name him.  Because if someone were to write to him (if he even exists), they find out that you lied, as he would deny havinig said any such thing.

    Here is yet another grave error to which you pertinaciously cling, and which you promote, despite having, on this thread been corrected by multiple posters (who are not Feeneyites by the way).

    All you have is your "Feeneyite heretic" crap.  Your heresy about unborn infants who don't receive Baptism being saved has absolutely nothing to do with Feeneyism.

    I have said nothing which isn't true.  The only thing you can imply from my choosing not too answer some questions is that i choose not to answer some questions. 

    Nadir has been on my ignore list for some time. 

    You are a windbag demigod heretic who, it seems, Matthew supports beyond all others, as many of us can no longer downvote you, allowing you to continue your rants against the True Faith.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #55 on: October 09, 2022, 08:49:15 PM »
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  • epiphany, you're a liar and a slanderer.

    You lie (and slander Traditional Catholicsm) by inventing these Trad chapels where women seeking separation on account of physical abuse are derided by the priest and most of the congregation.

    You lie (and slander Traditional Catholicism) by claiming that a Traditional Bishop told you that an "undisclosed explosive temper" is grounds for an annulment.

    You lie (and slander Traditional Catholicism) by claiming that you know all these young men who are looking for wives who have a good career so that they don't have to work.

    You lie (and slander Traditional Catholicism) by claiming that there many Traditional Catholic men who physicaly abuse their wives (and who are defended and protected by priests).

    You lie when claiming that the courts are stacked against women in divorce procedings.

    We know that you've simply made all this up to support your narrative.  I wouldn't really care ... except that in the process you slander Traditional Catholics and Traditional Catholicism.

    I have known ZERO cases of physical abuse by Traditional Catholic men against their wives.  I cannot rule out that there were isolated incidents, but nothing chronic or serious.  I've spent significant amounts of time at about a dozen Traditional chapels over the years, at different times of my life.  Not only that, but having been a former seminarian, at several of these chapels, I ended up being an assistant to and a right-hand-man of the priest there, since they trusted me from the seminary.  On top of that, I mingled with the faithful (as I was one of them).  Over the  years, I've had MANY women (for whatever reason ... they must feel as if I'm someone they can talk to) come to me and talk about their marital problems and confide in me about it.  I could honestly not figure out why, but they liked talking to me.  Perhaps they thought I had some quasi-clerical status due to being a former seminarian.  Many of them complained about their husbands, and their relationships with them.  Some of them asked me some rather uncomfortable details about the 6th commandment within marriage.  Throughout ALL of this, I have not heard even a SINGLE allegation of physical abuse by Traditional Catholic husbands against their wives ... either from the priest or from the faithful.

    Similarly, when I was younger, I mixed with the young men at these chapels (and later I knew them through their parents), and I have not ONCE run into a young man who was looking to find a wealthy wife or someone with a degree that would give them a career so that they could be supported by their prospective wife and not have to work.  In fact, most of them felt ashamed at the prospect that their wives might not be able to stay at home with the children, so they were anxious about getting in a situation where they could support the family on a single income (or even working extra jobs).


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #56 on: October 09, 2022, 08:51:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus 10/9/2022, 8:49:15 PM
    epiphany, you're a liar and a slanderer.

    You lie (and slander Traditional Catholicsm) by inventing these Trad chapels where women seeking separation on account of physical abuse are derided by the priest and most of the congreagation.

    You lie (and slander Traditional Catholicism) by claiming that a Traditional Bishop told you that an "undisclosed explosive temper" is grounds for an annulment.

    You lie (and slander Traditional Catholicism) by claiming that you know all these young men who are looking for wives who have a good career so that they don't have to work.

    You lie (and slander Traditional Catholicism) by claiming that there many Traditional Catholic men who physicaly abuse their wives (and who are defended and protected by priests).

    You lie when claiming that the courts are stacked against women in divorce procedings.
    Wrong again, you lying heretic.  
    I will not respond to you again.

    I didn't agree with Sean Johnson on much, but I now agree with his absence from a "catholic" forum which allows heretics, calumny, detraction and presuppositions to run rampant. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #57 on: October 09, 2022, 09:09:05 PM »
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  • Wrong again, you lying heretic. 
    I will not respond to you again.

    I didn't agree with Sean Johnson on much, but I now agree with his absence from a "catholic" forum which allows heretics, calumny, detraction and presuppositions to run rampant.

    When you make slanderous allegations against Traditional Catholics, they are to be presumed false unless you provide details (that can be verified) and evidence.  Consequently, you are a liar.

    You simply have to name the bishop:  "Bishop N told me that an undisclosed explosive temper was grounds for annulment."

    You simply have to say:  "At Traditional Chapel N, when Father N was in charge, a woman [her name should not be disclosed] was being physically abused by her husband, and she was derided by the priest and the faithful there for contemplating a separation, and that priest and congregation rallied to the defense of the abuser."

    Simple enough.  You don't have to write out the full sentence.  Just fill in the three "N"s above, Bishop's name, Chapel's name, and priest's name.  We can then simply contact them.  "Dear Bishop N, We had a poster on a forum claim that you said ... Is this true?"  "Dear Father N, We had a poster on a forum claim that you and most of your congregation derided a woman who was being physically abused by her husband for contemplating a separation.  Is this true?  Do you believe a woman who is being physically abused is entitled to a separation and possibly a civil divorce?"  If I knew of such things, I would name names publicly on the forum here so that the faithful could beware of these clergy and this chapel.

    On a side note, you have a lot of temerity accusing me of calumny and slander and detraction, when I everything I have written is based on your posts and your words.  YOU in fact are the calumniator in chief, slandering Traditional Catholicism at every turn.  And yet you have the audacity to complain about calumny.  You claimed slander when I called you out for defending a Modernist view of what qualifies for an annulment, and that is why I bumped this thread, since the proof is right here.

    Simple enough.  Just fill in 3 blanks.

    Bishop ________
    Father ________ at Traditional Chapel ____________ (+ location if name is ambiguous).

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #58 on: October 09, 2022, 09:11:35 PM »
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  • Because ladislaus says it's so, it must be true...  there is no possibility that someone has different experiences than he....
    :facepalm:

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #59 on: October 09, 2022, 09:14:43 PM »
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  • Because ladislaus says it's so, it must be true...  there is no possibility that someone has different experiences than he....
    :facepalm:

    No, there's no possibility whatsoever that what you've described as widespread and rampant and common among Traditional Catholics is.  I have enough of a sample size to know that without any doubt.  Obviously there have been situations and cases I did not know about, but there's a case of pretty much anything anywhere.  What's at issue is whether it's endemic among Traditional Catholicism as you claim, and especially whether there are priests or faithful who deride physically-abused women.  This needs to be exposed.

    In fact, by remaining silent, you're complicit in the abuse.  If you knew a chapel where a priest was molesting boys, and you remained silent, you're an accomplice.  If you know a case where physically abused women were being derided by the priest and congregation, you have an obligation to come out with it ... to protect women who might end up married by this priest or part of this congregation in the future.

    Still waiting for the names.  Otherwise, you're a shameless liar.