Author Topic: Marriage vows and domestic abuse (Read 8114 times)

Matthew · « **Reply #30 on:** July 17, 2022, 06:21:27 PM »

Quote from: epiphany on July 17, 2022, 05:31:57 PM

True, but in my opinion, and I am no theologian, that deceit regarding a serious character defect which will hamper the marriage, are two errors about the quality of the person which amounts to errors of the person.

You can't hide something as fundamental as a choleric temperament or a tendency to lose one's temper. If the woman is not blind, she will see that her husband is prone to anger, control, even violence when provoked. It's like saying a man could hide being a man, pretending he was a female. No, everything about him would betray him. His stride, his bearing, his posture, everything would betray "I'm a man".

Love is notoriously blind, but it can't be cited later as grounds for annulment. What did the woman think? The way he treated that waiter at the restaurant last week is how he's going to treat YOU in 10 years. No he wasn't just "having a bad day". Women are notorious for making excuses for stuff like this, especially when infatuation/love/emotions are involved.

Oh, and you should court your prospective spouse longer than a few weeks, or a few months, especially if you have any doubts. Even an alcoholic can stay clean for a week or two...

There is nothing so tragic as the man (or woman) who deceives HIMSELF.

josefamenendez · « **Reply #31 on:** July 17, 2022, 06:49:45 PM »

Matthew stated:
Long story short, the SSPX (and others) might be advised to consider annulments legit, but that does NOT mean God is OK with that annulment. You are responsible for your own soul. You should be concerned what GOD thinks, not the Conciliar Church, the SSPX, a trad group, a trad priest, or your friend group.
*********************

Yikes!! I thought that is why we adjure to the Church so we do not have to wrestle with personal subjectivism, scrupulosity or laxity. Isn't that why we go to the Church*- what is bound on Earth shall be bound in Heaven? I realize we are in a crisis and we may not have acceptable authoritative direction, but should we lean unto our own understanding about this?

(*PS-I am talking about legitimate Trad priests)

SimpleMan · « **Reply #32 on:** July 17, 2022, 06:59:07 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on July 17, 2022, 06:21:27 PM

You can't hide something as fundamental as a choleric temperament or a tendency to lose one's temper. If the woman is not blind, she will see that her husband is prone to anger, control, even violence when provoked. It's like saying a man could hide being a man, pretending he was a female. No, everything about him would betray him. His stride, his bearing, his posture, everything would betray "I'm a man".

Love is notoriously blind, but it can't be cited later as grounds for annulment. What did the woman think? The way he treated that waiter at the restaurant last week is how he's going to treat YOU in 10 years. No he wasn't just "having a bad day". Women are notorious for making excuses for stuff like this, especially when infatuation/love/emotions are involved.

Oh, and you should court your prospective spouse longer than a few weeks, or a few months, especially if you have any doubts. Even an alcoholic can stay clean for a week or two...

There is nothing so tragic as the man (or woman) who deceives HIMSELF.

"Isolated incidents" rarely are.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #33 on:** July 17, 2022, 07:31:24 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on July 17, 2022, 06:21:27 PM

The way he treated that waiter at the restaurant last week is how he's going to treat YOU in 10 years. No he wasn't just "having a bad day". Women are notorious for making excuses for stuff like this, especially when infatuation/love/emotions are involved.

That's actually a great piece of advice here for those courting, whether men or women. Keep an eye out for how the prospective spouse treats other people. Perhaps they're trying very hard to be nice and kind to you, or perhaps generally are moved to be that way due to emotions and/or infatuation, but watch how they treat other people, whether strangers or else people in their own family. Once the infatuation wears off, that's what they'll be like to you also.

So, even if they COULD hide some character defect, that doesn't rise to the level of justifying an annulment. On those grounds, 95% of marriages might be in doubt. There are always some things that manifest themselves more clearly later that perhaps were squeezed out by emotions and infatuation, etc. And good luck trying to draw a solid line between those things that are critical and relevant to the essence of a marriage, and those things that are not. "I found out that this man doesn't put down the toilet seat when he's finished urinating. This is not the man I thought I was marrying." That's an obviously absurd example, but where exactly can the line be drawn? As the snippet from the 1917 Code indicates, errors regarding the QUALITY of the person can annul only if they rise to the level of changing the essence of the person. We had a discussion at some point where I held that a woman who found out that her husband had been a sodomite would fall into this category, but then others cited various decisions from marriage tribunals indicating that even that grave a character defect did not necessarily mean the marriage was null. Some Canonists felt that it did, but many that it did not. That surprised me. And it is clear, for instance, if a woman found out later that the man had been a serial fornicator, that this would not impact the validity of the marriage either.

Minnesota · « **Reply #34 on:** July 17, 2022, 08:43:54 PM »

Quote from: Matthew on July 17, 2022, 06:21:27 PM

You can't hide something as fundamental as a choleric temperament or a tendency to lose one's temper. If the woman is not blind, she will see that her husband is prone to anger, control, even violence when provoked. It's like saying a man could hide being a man, pretending he was a female. No, everything about him would betray him. His stride, his bearing, his posture, everything would betray "I'm a man".

Love is notoriously blind, but it can't be cited later as grounds for annulment. What did the woman think? The way he treated that waiter at the restaurant last week is how he's going to treat YOU in 10 years. No he wasn't just "having a bad day". Women are notorious for making excuses for stuff like this, especially when infatuation/love/emotions are involved.

Oh, and you should court your prospective spouse longer than a few weeks, or a few months, especially if you have any doubts. Even an alcoholic can stay clean for a week or two...

There is nothing so tragic as the man (or woman) who deceives HIMSELF.

These are great points, especially about the courting. A lot of people will put up a front if they want to make that first impression, but then suddenly, the curtain falls.

And how he treats not only the waiter, but other people in a regular setting. That is a very big indicator.

Matthew · « **Reply #35 on:** July 18, 2022, 02:53:06 AM »

Quote from: josefamenendez on July 17, 2022, 06:49:45 PM

Quote from: josefamenendez 7/17/2022, 6:49:45 PM
Yikes!! I thought that is why we adjure to the Church so we do not have to wrestle with personal subjectivism, scrupulosity or laxity. Isn't that why we go to the Church*- what is bound on Earth shall be bound in Heaven? I realize we are in a crisis and we may not have acceptable authoritative direction, but should we lean unto our own understanding about this?

(*PS-I am talking about legitimate Trad priests)

Yes, and a parent SHOULD be able to trust his private school teachers, at a Trad Catholic school, to take care of educating their children. But that doesn't change the fact that the PRIMARY responsibility of educating children rests and remains with the parents.

The only way to insulate yourself -- and your salvation -- against a bad or lax priest is to firstly consider what God wants. Read the lives of the saints. It's not rocket science. Err on the side of caution. Err on the side of goodness, charity, generosity, and you'll NEVER regret it.

And yes you certainly know deep down in your heart if your marriage was valid or not. You were there. You knew your spouse on your wedding day. You knew if he had all his faculties, sufficient to make the wedding vows (and confer the Sacrament upon you -- the couple confer this Sacrament on each other). And you knew if he was putting himself out under a fake identity or not. You know very well how much violence or coercion was being exerted upon the spouses on their wedding day. There aren't many loopholes for invalidating a marriage, and most of those are closed by the routine "marriage preparation", even of the most basic variety.

dymphnaw · « **Reply #36 on:** July 18, 2022, 09:11:52 AM »

Several years ago I was acquainted with a family whose eldest son had manic/depressive episodes. He struck a former girlfriend as well as stealing her car and did 8 months in jail for it. When he married his family was so relieved to get him off their hands. I hope that bride was told about his mental issues but I don't think she was. The poor girl may have grounds for an annulment. That's an extreme case which doesn't apply to most annulment petitions.

Minnesota · « **Reply #37 on:** July 18, 2022, 09:46:00 AM »

Quote from: dymphnaw on July 18, 2022, 09:11:52 AM

Several years ago I was acquainted with a family whose eldest son had manic/depressive episodes. He struck a former girlfriend as well as stealing her car and did 8 months in jail for it. When he married his family was so relieved to get him off their hands. I hope that bride was told about his mental issues but I don't think she was. The poor girl may have grounds for an annulment. That's an extreme case which doesn't apply to most annulment petitions.

I really hope she's still alive. Because people like that eldest son are the type who would kill their spouses.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #38 on:** July 18, 2022, 09:53:01 AM »

Quote

As I have said several times: i am no theologian. talk to a traditional priest you trust.

Epiphany, you need to take your own advice and stop posting about this topic. Your understanding of annulments isn't Traditional at all and you are potentially giving bad advice/scandal to those that are also uneducated.

epiphany · « **Reply #39 on:** July 18, 2022, 01:33:53 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 18, 2022, 09:53:01 AM

Epiphany, you need to take your own advice and stop posting about this topic. Your understanding of annulments isn't Traditional at all and you are potentially giving bad advice/scandal to those that are also uneducated.

I have, pax, and to a bishop. They all educated me the same way.

epiphany · « **Reply #40 on:** July 18, 2022, 01:35:10 PM »

Quote from: dymphnaw on July 18, 2022, 09:11:52 AM

Several years ago I was acquainted with a family whose eldest son had manic/depressive episodes. He struck a former girlfriend as well as stealing her car and did 8 months in jail for it. When he married his family was so relieved to get him off their hands. I hope that bride was told about his mental issues but I don't think she was. The poor girl may have grounds for an annulment. That's an extreme case which doesn't apply to most annulment petitions.

Exactly. It may not apply to most annulments, but it would be grounds nonetheless, because she was deceived about a serious issue.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #41 on:** July 18, 2022, 01:35:29 PM »

Traditional Bishops?

Nadir · « **Reply #42 on:** July 18, 2022, 08:32:39 PM »

Quote from: epiphany on July 18, 2022, 01:33:53 PM

I have, pax, and to a bishop. They all educated me the same way.

Then you must have misunderstood them.

epiphany · « **Reply #43 on:** July 19, 2022, 09:52:54 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 18, 2022, 01:35:29 PM

Traditional Bishops?

Yes

epiphany · « **Reply #44 on:** August 26, 2022, 12:03:00 PM »

Quote from: dymphnaw on July 18, 2022, 09:11:52 AM

Several years ago I was acquainted with a family whose eldest son had manic/depressive episodes. He struck a former girlfriend as well as stealing her car and did 8 months in jail for it. When he married his family was so relieved to get him off their hands. I hope that bride was told about his mental issues but I don't think she was. The poor girl may have grounds for an annulment. That's an extreme case which doesn't apply to most annulment petitions.

I was going through boxes in the garage and stumbled upon a paper I saved. On it were notes on this topic when I was speaking with a trad bishop:

If the spouse or his family knew he had an abusive tendency prior to marriage and neither he nor his family mentioned it, there would be grounds for annulment because committing severe abuse is an insanity and, therefore, the nature of the person was not presented fully prior to marriage.

I hope this clarifies things. I don't think it is common, but it does happen.

Author Topic: Marriage vows and domestic abuse (Read 8114 times)

Matthew

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

josefamenendez

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

SimpleMan

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

Ladislaus

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

Minnesota

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

Matthew

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

dymphnaw

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

Minnesota

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

Pax Vobis

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

epiphany

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

epiphany

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

Pax Vobis

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

Nadir

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

epiphany

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse

epiphany

Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse