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Author Topic: Marriage vows and domestic abuse  (Read 7702 times)

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Offline caeli34

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Marriage vows and domestic abuse
« on: July 16, 2022, 11:21:48 AM »
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  • If this has been covered elsewhere or there’s an official SSPX view…please point me in the right direction and delete this post.

    Given the marriage vows, what  level (if any?) of domestic abuse is considered grounds for an annulment?  Is it generally advised by SSPX priests to separate indefinitely if need be instead?  What if a priest advises a woman to stay and her and her children are injured or killed by the husband?  

    For the first time since finding the truth in the SSPX I find my commitment to them a little wavering.  A solid SSPX priest who we deeply respect told a woman she needed to stay with her physically abusive husband.  He tried to kill her.  I know the modern church gives out annulments like their lollipops but I also can’t understand this priests advice knowing her life was in danger.  And yes, I am fully aware I’m only getting part of the whole story.  Just trying to understand where the line is in respect to church teaching and tradition.  This woman sadly left the SSPX because of it.  

    Offline Mike Henderson

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #1 on: July 16, 2022, 11:41:07 AM »
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  • Looking after her own safety would not objectively violate obedience. If your description is accurate, then charity and the danger of calumny would oblige the woman, rather than airing her conversation publicly, to discuss the matter with the priest's prior, and if that does not avail, with the District House.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #2 on: July 16, 2022, 11:53:37 AM »
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  • If this has been covered elsewhere or there’s an official SSPX view…please point me in the right direction and delete this post.

    Given the marriage vows, what  level (if any?) of domestic abuse is considered grounds for an annulment?  Is it generally advised by SSPX priests to separate indefinitely if need be instead?  What if a priest advises a woman to stay and her and her children are injured or killed by the husband? 

    For the first time since finding the truth in the SSPX I find my commitment to them a little wavering.  A solid SSPX priest who we deeply respect told a woman she needed to stay with her physically abusive husband.  He tried to kill her.  I know the modern church gives out annulments like their lollipops but I also can’t understand this priests advice knowing her life was in danger.  And yes, I am fully aware I’m only getting part of the whole story.  Just trying to understand where the line is in respect to church teaching and tradition.  This woman sadly left the SSPX because of it. 

    If it is a valid marriage, no level of domestic abuse, all by itself, would be grounds for an annulment.  Separation and leaving the abusive home (and taking the children), yes, nobody has to stay in a dangerous situation, but that is not the same as the marriage being invalid.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #3 on: July 16, 2022, 01:07:59 PM »
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  • The priest being wrong in his judgement about whether or not she should leave has nothing to do with annulment. Separation and annulment are entirely separate things.

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #4 on: July 16, 2022, 02:42:24 PM »
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  • If she has children she is OBLIGATED to protect them from the abuse.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #5 on: July 16, 2022, 03:24:19 PM »
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  • If she has children she is OBLIGATED to protect them from the abuse.
    She is also obligated to protect herself, so she can take care of her children.

    The Church allows for temporary separation to give the offender time to correct himself/herself. 

    The Church also allows for permanent separation if the offender does not correct himself/herself, or if the abuse continues.

    Annulment is not granted for abuse unless one spouse knew he had a very abusive temper and did not dilvuge it to either the woman or the priest, prior to marriage.  

    The SSPX, unfortunately, seems to have a history of considering women whining when they complain of abuse rather than investigate.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #6 on: July 16, 2022, 03:26:25 PM »
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  • Looking after her own safety would not objectively violate obedience. If your description is accurate, then charity and the danger of calumny would oblige the woman, rather than airing her conversation publicly, to discuss the matter with the priest's prior, and if that does not avail, with the District House.
    Or wrote them a letter and find a different trad priest 

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #7 on: July 16, 2022, 06:50:08 PM »
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  • Annulment is not granted for abuse unless one spouse knew he had a very abusive temper and did not dilvuge it to either the woman or the priest, prior to marriage. 
    Although you have been corrected many times you still persist in making false claims that lack of foreknowlege of a spouse’s faults can justify annulment. No spouse divulges all his/her faults. We were all in for surprises.

    Remember: for better or worse?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #8 on: July 17, 2022, 01:45:55 AM »
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  • She is also obligated to protect herself, so she can take care of her children.

    The Church allows for temporary separation to give the offender time to correct himself/herself. 

    The Church also allows for permanent separation if the offender does not correct himself/herself, or if the abuse continues.

    This.

    Annulment is NOT a code-word for divorce. There are NO circuмstances which justify the dissolution of a valid marriage, once it is created.
    Annulment means "it never happened" -- it was invalid for some reason. So if the husband was going under a fake identity, threats/coercion were involved (one of the parties didn't enter into the marriage of their own free will), or other rare situations.

    Generally, the marriage preparation (whatever group you're with) will close all those doors, one by one. OOPS!

    The priest will tell you the nature of marriage (exclusive, indissoluble, for the begetting of children, etc.) so you can't claim ignorance later.

    Blindness ("Love is blind"), imprudence, stupidity are NOT excuses for dissolving a valid marriage later. A failed marriage, a bad marriage, is still a marriage.

    As others said, if physical safety is an issue (for the spouse and/or children involved) then YES you must get a "separation of bed and board" until the spouse amends. This same "separation of bed and board" is an option for the victimized spouse, when one spouse commits adultery. You don't have to "take him back" or "take her back" -- but you can't get divorced and remarried. Sorry.

    YOU CAN'T EVER GET DIVORCED, MUCH LESS REMARRIED once you enter into a valid marriage. Many souls go to hell from sins of the flesh, and Our Lady wasn't just talking about "solitary vice" or sins of the eyes. She certainly was also referring to the many "irregular living situations" caused by false divorce/remarriage. Think of how hard that sin is to extricate yourself from, compared to ALL OTHER SINS. You could be free of all sins, but find it virtually impossible to separate from your concubine and get right with God. I know of such cases IRL.

    There is an excellent chapter in the book, "The Sinner's Return to God" (TAN Books) that tells of such a story. A man was on his DEATHBED and was ready to part with all his sins -- except to reject his concubine and confess THAT sin. The priest entreated him earnestly, pointing out that he must needs part with her soon anyhow, so why not part with her freely and save his soul? But the man refused. With his dying breath he embraced and kissed his concubine -- and went straight to hell. All the other sins? Defeated. What sin cost this man his eternal soul? An Irregular living situation -- an irregular marriage. Sixth and Ninth claimed yet another victim.

    If I could have a promise from God that this or that child of mine could be guaranteed free of ONE type of sin for their whole lives -- without even thinking I'd say "Sixth Commandment".
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #9 on: July 17, 2022, 02:14:44 AM »
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  • Here is the book. In this edition, the story I referred to is on page 98.

    It's a very good book, by the way!

    https://www.cathinfo.com/files/sinners.pdf
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #10 on: July 17, 2022, 06:43:18 AM »
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  • The SSPX, unfortunately, seems to have a history of considering women whining when they complain of abuse rather than investigate.

    I dispute this.  I've actually known several cases where women falsely alleged abuse (Amber Heard anyone?).  And most of the cases of alleged non-physical abuse were in fact "women whining" about having to obey their husbands and where the woman was in fact the primary "abuser".  There's a real danger of being sucked into a #metoo movement.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #11 on: July 17, 2022, 06:46:05 AM »
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  • Annulment is not granted for abuse unless one spouse knew he had a very abusive temper and did not dilvuge it to either the woman or the priest, prior to marriage. 

    Undisclosed "abusive temper" is not grounds for an annulment.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #12 on: July 17, 2022, 06:59:35 AM »
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  • Although you have been corrected many times you still persist in making false claims that lack of foreknowlege of a spouse’s faults can justify annulment. No spouse divulges all his/her faults. We were all in for surprises.

    Remember: for better or worse?

    Good post! Thank you, Nadir. Annulments are not easy things to obtain (obviously this is not the case in the NO church) and the grounds for one are few indeed. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #13 on: July 17, 2022, 07:59:23 AM »
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  • What about annulments already granted in the NO? Does R and R accept them as legitimate? If not, who determines whether the annulment "granted" has merit or is legitimate or not? I think SSPX accepts them as they are but I know Pius the V does not accept annulments after 1967

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Marriage vows and domestic abuse
    « Reply #14 on: July 17, 2022, 10:42:20 AM »
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  • What about annulments already granted in the NO? Does R and R accept them as legitimate? If not, who determines whether the annulment "granted" has merit or is legitimate or not? I think SSPX accepts them as they are but I know Pius the V does not accept annulments after 1967

    Perhaps they simply accept them now as is, I don't know, but they used to investigate each one brought to them and then make some kind of "determination" about whether it was legitimate or not ... which is extremely problematic.