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Author Topic: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11  (Read 6237 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2023, 07:17:42 AM »
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  • DR, I don't disagree with your second paragraph, but we disagree when you say in your third paragraph that we cannot "pinpoint" things more precisely than what you described. The reason I disagree with you on that is Biblical and specifically because of my interpretation of Daniel.

    Read Daniel chapter 7. In that chapter we find the genealogy of "the Beast from the Sea" (7 heads, 10 horns). That Beast of the Sea represents the Vatican City-State, constituted under the Lateran Treaty of 1929. The 7 heads start with Pius XI going through Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, JPI, JPII, BXVI. They are sequential. They are all lawfully-elected Popes (whatever you think of their orthodoxy).

    Then we get to Bergoglio. He is not a lawfully-elected Pope. He is a usurper. He is the head of the 10 horns. The 10 horns is the Council of Cardinal Advisors that made a deal to share power when they "elected" Bergoglio. Bergoglio is the "little horn" that asserts himself above the original group and eliminates three of the original members (Cardinal Pell and the other two Cardinals).

    Daniel Chapter 7 describes it this way:

    This "little horn" that comes out of the 10 horns (the usurping Cardinals) is called in the Apocalypse "the eighth [king] who is of the seven but goes to perdition." This is Bergoglio. He is also called "the Beast from the Earth" in Apocalypse 13. The final, fully-formed, counterfeit Church is described in Apocalypse 17 in this way:

    The reason the "five are fallen" line is mentioned is to explain when "the beast from the Earth," the False Prophet, the Antichrist, comes onto the scene. Bergoglio was made a bishop and a Cardinal during JPII's pontificate. He, Bergoglio, is "the eighth" in appearance, but he is not a true pope and actually only a Cardinal with no real papal authority. This is why Daniel says, that this ten-horned Beast is "unlike to the other beasts which I had seen before." The 7 heads are 7 kings (monarch/Popes). The 10 Horns is an oligarchy or an aristocracy of those Cardinals who were supposed to share power after the 2013 fake conclave.

    Now, if you have followed me this far, let me try to sum up. The problems in the Roman Catholic Church start before Vatican II. The errors begin to slowly take over starting, at least, with Pius XI. But the progression is gradual. So, I'm not claiming that all was well before Bergoglio takes over. No, "the Beast from the Sea" the corrupt Vatican hierarchy (caused by the Freemasonic infiltration) is growing since 1929. But the culmination of that process does not occur until we get to the "Beast from the Earth," the False Prophet, the Antichrist, the Little Horn, Bergoglio.

    I will stop here for now. Do you agree that Daniel and the Apocalypse are describing this decades long deterioration of the Church with the image of the Beast from the Sea? Do you see how the Little Horn arises out of the Fourth and last Beast, the Beast that is "unlike to the other Beasts," whose head is "the Beast from the Earth." Do you see that this is an historical account of the different regimes of the Vatican City-State up to our time, ending with Bergoglio as the apex of evil?

    Angelus,

    As with the days, I do not believe the numbers are literal. The Apocalypse speaks of 7 kings, and then of an 8th, who is the beast (Apoc. 17:10-11). But then there is the beast, and then another beast in Apoc. 13:11 - the 9th?

    It also speaks of a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Apoc.  17:7), and the 10 horns are "10 kings" (Apoc. 13:12). And it is these 10 kings that make war with the Lamb, and make the harlot "desolate," etc. (Apoc. 17:12-14, 17). 

    Daniel speaks of 10 horns, and of an 11th that arises, who brings down 3 of them; these horns are also "kings." (Dn 7:24). It is this "11th" horn that "shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time." Dan. 7:25. The 11th "king," not the 7th,  or rather the 8th, or the 9th(?),  or the "10 kings" in  concert (Apoc. 17:12-14,17).

    I could go on. The numbers, if you take them literally, just don't add up. Not only that, but they are in conflict if literal - being symbolic and figurative, there is no conflict.


    As with the "days," I believe we will one day see that these numbers regarding "kings" and "horns" are not literal. They are tropes, symbolically charged, both the images ("kings," "horns") and their number.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #46 on: October 27, 2023, 10:13:15 AM »
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  • Angelus,

    As with the days, I do not believe the numbers are literal. The Apocalypse speaks of 7 kings, and then of an 8th, who is the beast (Apoc. 17:10-11). But then there is the beast, and then another beast in Apoc. 13:11 - the 9th?

    It also speaks of a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns (Apoc.  17:7), and the 10 horns are "10 kings" (Apoc. 13:12). And it is these 10 kings that make war with the Lamb, and make the harlot "desolate," etc. (Apoc. 17:12-14, 17). 

    Daniel speaks of 10 horns, and of an 11th that arises, who brings down 3 of them; these horns are also "kings." (Dn 7:24). It is this "11th" horn that "shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time." Dan. 7:25. The 11th "king," not the 7th,  or rather the 8th, or the 9th(?),  or the "10 kings" in  concert (Apoc. 17:12-14,17).

    I could go on. The numbers, if you take them literally, just don't add up. Not only that, but they are in conflict if literal - being symbolic and figurative, there is no conflict.


    As with the "days," I believe we will one day see that these numbers regarding "kings" and "horns" are not literal. They are tropes, symbolically charged, both the images ("kings," "horns") and their number.

    DR


    DR, some of these issues were settled by the Church Fathers. I don't have time right now to look up each topic, so I will just try to paraphrase what I have come to understand from my reading of the Fathers.

    1. The "eighth" is described as "of the seven [kings]." This person is "the False Prophet," who the Church Fathers identify with the Antichrist, the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Little Horn. Same person.

    2. In the passage from Apoc. 17 that I quoted, there are the two Beasts described in more detail in Apoc. chapter 13. The Beast from the Sea has 7 heads and 10 horns. That Beast is the institution of the Vatican City-State/Holy See and its governance structure. The Second Beast described in Apoc. 13, the Beast from the Earth, also called the False Prophet in the Apocalypse, is "the eighth" discussed in Apoc. 17. 

    These are overlapping descriptions. They are not describing new people. There is only one Antichrist, the single man, that all the Fathers recognize.



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #47 on: October 27, 2023, 10:21:02 AM »
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  • Quote
    Yes, I am morally certain that Jorge Mario Bergoglio is the Antichrist prophesied in Sacred Scripture and discussed by all the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.
    :laugh1:  Oh, boy.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #48 on: October 27, 2023, 11:10:57 AM »
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  • DR, some of these issues were settled by the Church Fathers. I don't have time right now to look up each topic, so I will just try to paraphrase what I have come to understand from my reading of the Fathers.

    1. The "eighth" is described as "of the seven [kings]." This person is "the False Prophet," who the Church Fathers identify with the Antichrist, the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Little Horn. Same person.

    2. In the passage from Apoc. 17 that I quoted, there are the two Beasts described in more detail in Apoc. chapter 13. The Beast from the Sea has 7 heads and 10 horns. That Beast is the institution of the Vatican City-State/Holy See and its governance structure. The Second Beast described in Apoc. 13, the Beast from the Earth, also called the False Prophet in the Apocalypse, is "the eighth" discussed in Apoc. 17.

    These are overlapping descriptions. They are not describing new people. There is only one Antichrist, the single man, that all the Fathers recognize.

    Angelus,

    I agree that there are "overlapping descriptions." However, under discussion is the literalness of the numbers. They don't jibe. I do not believe the numbers are to be literally taken. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.