Author Topic: Knox Bible (Read 4136 times)

ChrisCath · « **on:** May 03, 2012, 05:45:53 PM »

Asking for member opinions on the Knox Bible.
Is it reliable?

Cuthbert · « **Reply #1 on:** May 03, 2012, 06:09:41 PM »

I would say not. A good example of why I say this is the following; Msgr. Knox translated the prophecy in the Book Of Isaias "Ecce Virgo concipiet et pariet filium", which can only mean "Behold, a Virgin shall conceive and shall bear a Son", as "A maid shall be brought to bed of a son". This is clearly an attack on the Doctrine of the Perpetual Virginity of Our Lady. The Douay-Rheims is a much better choice.

Caraffa · « **Reply #2 on:** May 03, 2012, 07:26:55 PM »

From what I've read about Fr. Knox, he has always struck me as a Neo-Modernist and someone who mixes truth with errors. He's another reason to be skeptical about the 19th-20th century Catholic revival in England, despite the fact that it gave us good men like Cardinal Manning and Bishop Williamson.

Vladimir · « **Reply #3 on:** May 03, 2012, 08:38:39 PM »

Quote from: Caraffa

From what I've read about Fr. Knox, he has always struck me as a Neo-Modernist and someone who mixes truth with errors. He's another reason to be skeptical about the 19th-20th century Catholic revival in England, despite the fact that it gave us good men like Cardinal Manning and Bishop Williamson.

...and Father Faber.

A maid signifies a virgin. Hence, maiden name. Please see Samuel Johnson's Dictionary of the English language, the 1828 Webster's or any other reliable dictionary.

Perhaps Fr. Knox was simply trying to adopt a translation more natural to the English tongue as opposed to the highly useful and accurate, but at the same time slavishly and unnaturally Latinate translation of the pre-Challoner Douay-Rheims translation.

Opinion re: Knox translation - without having read it myself, probably it is best used in conjunction with the pre-Challoner Douay-Rheims and the Vulgate.

Sede Catholic · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2012, 09:01:40 PM »

The Douay-Rheims translation of the Vulgate Bible is the only translation of the Bible into the English language that I would recommend.

Other translations were influenced by Heretics.

The Knox Bible should be avoided.

The Bible is the most important book that has ever been written.

Get the best version. The true version.

Caraffa · « **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:23:44 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

A maid signifies a virgin. Hence, maiden name. Please see Samuel Johnson's Dictionary of the English language, the 1828 Webster's or any other reliable dictionary.

Perhaps Fr. Knox was simply trying to adopt a translation more natural to the English tongue as opposed to the highly useful and accurate, but at the same time slavishly and unnaturally Latinate translation of the pre-Challoner Douay-Rheims translation.

I had not thought about that Vladimir, but I think this is a case of "if its not broken don't fix it." The term virgin in Isaias 7 is clear and not a translation difficulty that can later be improved upon.

Vladimir · « **Reply #6 on:** May 04, 2012, 12:32:43 AM »

Quote from: Caraffa

Quote from: Vladimir
A maid signifies a virgin. Hence, maiden name. Please see Samuel Johnson's Dictionary of the English language, the 1828 Webster's or any other reliable dictionary.

Perhaps Fr. Knox was simply trying to adopt a translation more natural to the English tongue as opposed to the highly useful and accurate, but at the same time slavishly and unnaturally Latinate translation of the pre-Challoner Douay-Rheims translation.

I had not thought about that Vladimir, but I think this is a case of "if its not broken don't fix it." The term virgin in Isaias 7 is clear and not a translation difficulty that can later be improved upon.

Honestly, when I first read Cuthbert's post, I was slightly alarmed at what at first seemed to be a deliberately ambiguous translation of, as you have said, a very clear term.

However, if Fr. Knox was doing what I think he was doing - that is, choosing a synonymous English term for the original Latin - then I, having worked on translation myself, can sympathize with his decision. The question is - if one is translating a work for speakers of the English tongue, why not find the idiomatic expression with the same meaning instead of merely putting in a cognate, albeit a common one? In fact, after making my previous post, I checked a dictionary just to be sure and, in fact, "virgin" was the first definition of "maiden" (after specificing that the subject was a girl of course)! It can't get much more clear than that.

For the great majority of laymen, the only versions of the Holy Scriptures that we read will be translations. It's really senseless to limit ourselves to one translation without giving other translations a chance, at least for comparison sake.

I have found this to be true with languages where the translations of Holy Scriptures were never standardized. It is great fun to compare the different nuances in translation of the different versions of Chinese Bible translations for example, or the Old Testament paraphrases done by the Jesuit missionaries into Vietnamese. What would this forum think of the translation of the book of Psalms into Classical Chinese by John Wu? At times they barely amount to paraphrases of the Douay (he didn't translate from the Vulgate), but yet they have been the source of great edification for the Chinese faithful and a great tool of evangelization - the same goes for his translation of the New Testament which is also liberally translated compared to the Douay translation of the Vulgate.

Hands down, the best English translation is the original pre-Challoner Douay. However, that shouldn't deter us from adding the Challoner Douay, the Knox, and other translations (so long as they are not blatantly Protestant) to our libraries!

Cuthbert · « **Reply #7 on:** May 04, 2012, 01:27:02 AM »

You are right Vladimir that the use of the word maid isn't in & of itself an attack on Our Lady's Perpetual Virginity, though I must say that I find the word Virgin to be more dignified, to tell the truth I remembered the bit that I wrote from an article by Fr. Feeney originally published in 1958 in his magazine The Point. I don't agree with Fr. Feeney's ideas regarding Baptism, but do find many of his writings on other subjects to be spot on. The article can be found online by typing in Knox translation, Fr. Feeney, I would provide a link, but I'm not so good with computers. Fr. Feeney wrote of various other things written by Msgr. Knox which shed light on the matter. To give two examples from the article..... "And here is his (Msgr. Knox's) summary statement on Our Lady.....most of the literature about Her and the popular devotions connected with Her leave me cold."It could be argued that this doesn't necessarily have any bearing on a man's ability as a translator, but I should certainly much prefer an author who had a fervent devotion to The Most Holy Mother of God, such as St. Alphonsus de Liguori, or St. Bernard. Some of Msgr. Knox's thoughts on St. John's Gospel..... "St. John never really sat down and wrote a Gospel; what we've got is the result of a series of press conferences, at which his disciples were plying him with questions all the time" Fr. Feeney notes that this flippant tone was common to Msgr. Knox's writings. I should have included all of this in the original post, I must say that perhaps Fr. Feeney goes too far in ascribing motives, I suppose none of us can really know exactly why Msgr. Knox chose the words that he did, but nonetheless, in light of all this I'd rather not read Msgr. Knox's translation.

lefebvre_fan · « **Reply #8 on:** May 04, 2012, 08:15:54 AM »

Another problem passage:

Quote from: Luke 1:34 (Knox)

But Mary said to the angel, How can that be, since I have no knowledge of man?

vs.

Quote from: Luke 1:34 (Douay-Challoner)

And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

and

Quote from: Luke 1:34 (Confraternity)

But Mary said to the angel, "How shall this happen, since I do not know man?"

Sede Catholic · « **Reply #9 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:14:18 PM »

Yes, the above change is one of many, many flaws.

Some of them are intentional.

They are inserted to deceive us about the Bible.

We have to be really careful of this.

Avoid all bad translations of the Bible.

The New Jerusalem is possibly the most evil. Although it has competition from other translations.

Only read the Douay-Rheims Bible .

Sede Catholic · « **Reply #10 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:25:07 PM »

THE DOUAY-RHEIMS IS THE BEST TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE INTO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

It is Catholic and it is a slavish translation from the Latin of the Vulgate.

That is what you need. A slavish translation from the Latin.

Do not read something else that has been altered, in the way that the Knox and the other bad translations have

been altered.

The Douay-Rheims Bible is the Bible to read in the English language.

The Catholic Church informs us that the books of the Bible have God as their Author.

The most important Book that has ever been written is the Holy Bible.

Do not get a bad translation.

Get the truth.

Get a Douay-Rheims Bible.