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Author Topic: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter  (Read 2478 times)

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Offline FiannFdla

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Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
« on: November 24, 2021, 12:57:17 PM »
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  • I am struggling to comprehend Jephthah's sacrifice of his daughter in Chapter 11 of the Book of Judges after his victory in battle. I'll post the exegesis from the DR Bible below but I can't wrap my head around this still. Any commentary is welcome!

    But the common opinion followed by the generality of the holy fathers and divines is, that she was offered as a h0Ɩ0cαųst, in consequence of her father's vow: and that Jephte did not sin, at least not mortally, neither in making, nor in keeping, his vow: since he is no ways blamed for it in scripture; and was even inspired by God himself to make the vow (as appears from ver. 29, 30) in consequence of which he obtained the victory; and therefore he reasonably concluded that God, who is the master of life and death, was pleased on this occasion to dispense with his own law; and that it was the divine will he should fulfil his vow.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #1 on: November 24, 2021, 01:31:31 PM »
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  • Be honest with yourself -- it's not your head that's having a difficult time wrapping around this. It's your HEART.

    You, like all of us here on CathInfo, swim about in a very emotional, very sentimental, very feminine, 21st century. Liberalism, sentimentality, feminism -- these things are in the very air we breathe. It's morally impossible NOT to be affected "even a little" by such a macro trend.

    We're only human. We certainly look around us to see what is normal, what the baseline is.

    Some of us might be only 1% liberal, etc. but if you say you're 0%, it means you're not very introspective or self-aware, and are probably not a very deep thinker.

    FOR EXAMPLE: I consider raising children with discipline to be very important. "Spare the rod and spoil the child." But I wouldn't for a second believe that I wouldn't act differently if I was growing up in the 19th century vs. today. If everyone around me (society as a whole) was promoting corporal punishment for misbehaving kids: using wooden paddles, sticks and beatings out behind the woodshed, I would probably be inclined to use more corporal punishment than I do today. Like the Overton window, there would be the two extremes: more severe (and sinful) parents actually beating (abusing) their kids, and to the other extreme, the most permissive parents would probably do as much spanking as I do today. 
    They used to spank kids to focus them in education! Can't say as I do this. When they don't do their chores, when they ignore me, disobey me -- yes. But education? Again, that's a modern sensibility. Really, seriously, what do you expect? You can't grow up, live, breathe in the modern world and be unaffected by it.

    But I know and realize that growing up in a different milieu WOULD affect me, my habits, my priorities, my values.

    That having been said, I will admit that passage is mysterious at best. Certainly not to be emulated.
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    Offline FiannFdla

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #2 on: November 24, 2021, 02:37:18 PM »
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  • I understand the point that you are trying to make in that yes we have all been contaminated with modernism to some degree and that God's ways are not our ways.

    But this is human sacrifice - and one's own daughter at that. I just don't know how to square this with the rightful destruction of the Canaanites and their child sacrifice practices (not to mention the overthrow of the Aztecs by the Conquistadors although this was not by explicit Divine decree). We all rightly look on in horror at civilizations that engage in this savagery and I don't see how God could have looked favourably upon Jephthah's actions.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #3 on: November 24, 2021, 02:41:34 PM »
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  • It would appear that God inspired him to make that vow.  God is the Author of life.  He gives it and He can take it away (and He does eventually for everyone born into this world).  This is little different than God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and where it was reputed unto him a great virtue to have complied.

    Now, there are in fact things that various OT figures do that are not praiseworthy, and just because Scripture recounts them does not mean they should be imitated.  Some of them are related by way of allegory.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #4 on: November 24, 2021, 02:43:27 PM »
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  • I understand the point that you are trying to make in that yes we have all been contaminated with modernism to some degree and that God's ways are not our ways.

    But this is human sacrifice - and one's own daughter at that. I just don't know how to square this with the rightful destruction of the Canaanites and their child sacrifice practices (not to mention the overthrow of the Aztecs by the Conquistadors although this was not by explicit Divine decree). We all rightly look on in horror at civilizations that engage in this savagery and I don't see how God could have looked favourably upon Jephthah's actions.

    As I wrote, God is the Author of life and He can take life as He pleases.  There's nothing wrong with "human sacrifice" if commanded by God.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #5 on: November 24, 2021, 04:14:51 PM »
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  • FOR EXAMPLE: I consider raising children with discipline to be very important. "Spare the rod and spoil the child." But I wouldn't for a second believe that I wouldn't act differently if I was growing up in the 19th century vs. today. If everyone around me (society as a whole) was promoting corporal punishment for misbehaving kids: using wooden paddles, sticks and beatings out behind the woodshed, I would probably be inclined to use more corporal punishment than I do today. Like the Overton window, there would be the two extremes: more severe (and sinful) parents actually beating (abusing) their kids, and to the other extreme, the most permissive parents would probably do as much spanking as I do today.
    They used to spank kids to focus them in education! Can't say as I do this. When they don't do their chores, when they ignore me, disobey me -- yes. But education? Again, that's a modern sensibility. Really, seriously, what do you expect? You can't grow up, live, breathe in the modern world and be unaffected by it.

    I really, really wish my wife would understand this. I recently had a bit of a spat with her on this subject because I informed her that I gave our 5-year old daughter a smack on the butt for trying to BITE MY LEG during a tantrum. Despite this, she is adamantly against corporal punishment entirely because her parents used it on her. Given my 3-year old son's fiery temperament, who shrieks at the top of his lungs for EVERY little thing that upsets him (which he definitely inherited from her), I'm very certain much of it was justified.

    Yet, thanks to the deformed modern institution of marriage, I am having a useful parenting tool deprived from me because one party (not subordinate) does not agree with the practice. (If you detect a bit of vitriol and resentment here, that is because there is) It is not as though this is my first recourse, it is always a last resort if they do not listen and I am not looking to beat them (God forbid!).

    St. John Chrysostom emphasizes the role of admonishing and punishing your children:

    Quote
    This priest had two sons who had given themselves over to every vice. The father did not concern himself with this and paid little attention, or if their depravity, having reached the limit, forced him to reproach them, he did it without the necessary fervor and authority. He should have punished them severely, thrown them out of his presence taken strict measures in order to put a stop to the outrage. He did nothing of the sort. He limited himself to giving them a form of admonition: Nay, my Sons, for the report which I hear is not good; do not so (I Kings 2:24). Is this what he should have said? They offended the One to Whom they owe their existence, and he still accepts them as part of his family? His admonition was useless and vain. No, this demanded not an admonition, but a strong lesson, severe torments, a treatment as strong as the evil. He should have used fear to root their young hearts out of this blindness. An admonition! Elis sons had no lack of these.

    The father destroyed himself and them. Meanwhile, we see the same thing before ourselves daily. How many parents there are who do not want to take upon themselves this labor of correcting their unsubmissive and unruly children! They are as if afraid to upset their children by reigning in with stern words the vicious tendencies to which they have submitted themselves. What is the outcome? Their disorder increases; their impunity leads them to criminal offenses; they are brought to trial; and the wretches die at the hands of the executioner. You refused your personal rights over them and committed them to the severity of civil punishment, and human justice wielded its harsh rights over them. You are afraid to humiliate them with some light punishment in your presence; but what horrible dishonor shall befall you when your son is no longer around, and the father, hounded everywhere by accusing glares, no longer dares to show himself anywhere.

    But, this is the cross I bear for continuing to be lax and giving into human respect. At times the question arises of my conversion catalyzing this mixed-marriage situation as itself a major cross for the heinous sins I committed as an infidel. :facepalm:
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #6 on: November 24, 2021, 05:50:17 PM »
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  • That mystifies me, as well!  And what about the incident with Lot’s was it half daughter?  He threw her out, gave her to the perverts who raped her, killed her, and cut her body in pieces to send all over the land.  
    There are many things in Scripture hard to understand.

    Offline FiannFdla

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #7 on: November 24, 2021, 05:57:35 PM »
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  • I believe it is still very much open to interpretation whether God actually favoured Japhthah's decision to sacrifice his daughter as it is not stated outright.

    Moreover, according to the DR Bible his daughter may have been offered up into perpetual virginity and not sacrificed:

    [31] "Whosoever": Some are of opinion, that the meaning of this vow of Jephte, was to consecrate to God whatsoever should first meet him, according to the condition of the thing; so as to offer it up as a h0Ɩ0cαųst, if it were such a thing as might be offered by the law; or to devote it otherwise to God, if it were not such as the law allowed to be offered in sacrifice. And therefore they think the daughter of Jephte was not slain by her father, but only consecrated to perpetual virginity. 


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #8 on: November 24, 2021, 07:47:30 PM »
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  • I've thought about whether child sacrifice is intrinsically evil. This touches upon the Euthyphro dialogue.

    if it were, it would not have been lawful for Abraham to have had the conviction to sacrifice his son on God's command.

    I think that is why the Douay-Rheims commentary states Jephte did not sin , as quoted in the opening post, "at least not mortally".

    To sacrifice one's child at God's command is no mortal sin, and Abraham was rewarded for his faith.

    Now Jephte was not commanded to do so, but as the commentary states, he was "inspired by God himself to make the vow (as appears from ver. 29, 30) in consequence of which he obtained the victory".

    I think if the angel had not stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son Isaac, he would would have carried through with his conviction and performed the sacrifice of Isaac; from reading Hebrews 11:19.



    Douay-Rheims

    http://drbo.org/chapter/01022.htm


    Genesis 22


    Quote
    [1] After these things, God tempted Abraham, and said to him: Abraham, Abraham. And he answered: Here I am. [2] He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and go into the land of vision: and there thou shalt offer him for an h0Ɩ0cαųst upon one of the mountains which I will shew thee. [3] So Abraham rising up in the night, saddled his ass: and took with him two young men, and Isaac his son: and when he had cut wood for the h0Ɩ0cαųst he went his way to the place which God had commanded him. [4] And on the third day, lifting up his eyes, he saw the place afar off. [5] And he said to his young men: Stay you here with the ass: I and the boy will go with speed as far as yonder, and after we have worshipped, will return to you.



    New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+22&version=NRSVACE


    Genesis 22


    Quote
    22 After these things God tested Abraham. He said to him, ‘Abraham!’ And he said, ‘Here I am.’ He said, ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt-offering on one of the mountains that I shall show you.’ So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; he cut the wood for the burnt-offering, and set out and went to the place in the distance that God had shown him. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place far away. Then Abraham said to his young men, ‘Stay here with the donkey; the boy and I will go over there; we will worship, and then we will come back to you.




    Douay-Rheims

    http://drbo.org/chapter/65011.htm


    Hebrews 11


    Quote
    [17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered Isaac: and he that had received the promises, offered up his only begotten son; [18] (To whom it was said: In Isaac shall thy seed be called.) [19] Accounting that God is able to raise up even from the dead.




    Hebrews 11:19 makes sense looking at the NRSVACE translation of Genesis 22:5.

    "we will come back to you"


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #9 on: November 24, 2021, 08:15:29 PM »
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  • Summa Theologica I-II Q. 94, A. 5

    Question 94. The natural law

    Article 5. Whether the natural law can be changed?


    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2094.htm#article5



    Quote
    Objection 2. Further, the slaying of the innocent, adultery, and theft are against the natural law. But we find these things changed by God: as when God commanded Abraham to slay his innocent son (Genesis 22:2); and when he ordered the Jєωs to borrow and purloin the vessels of the Egyptians (Exodus 12:35); and when He commanded Osee to take to himself "a wife of fornications" (Hosea 1:2). Therefore the natural law can be changed.


    [. . .]


    Reply to Objection 2. All men alike, both guilty and innocent, die the death of nature: which death of nature is inflicted by the power of God on account of original sin, according to 1 Samuel 2:6: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive." Consequently, by the command of God, death can be inflicted on any man, guilty or innocent, without any injustice whatever. In like manner adultery is intercourse with another's wife; who is allotted to him by the law emanating from God. Consequently intercourse with any woman, by the command of God, is neither adultery nor fornication. The same applies to theft, which is the taking of another's property. For whatever is taken by the command of God, to Whom all things belong, is not taken against the will of its owner, whereas it is in this that theft consists. Nor is it only in human things, that whatever is commanded by God is right; but also in natural things, whatever is done by God, is, in some way, natural, as stated in the I:105:6 ad 1.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #10 on: November 24, 2021, 08:30:37 PM »
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  • The despoiling of the Egyptians.


    Exodus 12

    http://www.drbo.org/chapter/02012.htm



    Quote
    [31] And Pharao calling Moses and Aaron, in the night, said: Arise and go forth from among my people, you and the children of Israel: go, sacrifice to the Lord as you say. [32] Your sheep and herds take along with you, as you demanded, and departing, bless me. [33] And the Egyptians pressed the people to go forth out of the land speedily, saying: We shall all die. [34] The people therefore took dough before it was leavened: and tying it in their cloaks, put it on their shoulders. [35] And the children of Israel did as Moses had commanded: and they asked of the Egyptians vessels of silver and gold, and very much raiment. [36] And the Lord gave favour to the people in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them: and they stripped the Egyptians.





    St. Augustine, Contra Faustum, Book XXII


    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/140622.htm


    Quote
    71. Then, as for Faustus' objection to the spoiling of the Egyptians, he knows not what he says. In this Moses not only did not sin, but it would have been sin not to do it. It was by the command of God, who, from His knowledge both of the actions and of the hearts of men, can decide on what every one should be made to suffer, and through whose agency. The people at that time were still carnal, and engrossed with earthly affections; while the Egyptians were in open rebellion against God, for they used the gold, God's creature, in the service of idols, to the dishonor of the Creator, and they had grievously oppressed strangers by making them work without pay. Thus the Egyptians deserved the punishment, and the Israelites were suitably employed in inflicting it. Perhaps, indeed, it was not so much a command as a permission to the Hebrews to act in the matter according to their own inclinations; and God, in sending the message by Moses, only wished that they should thus be informed of His permission. There may also have been mysterious reasons for what God said to the people on this matter. At any rate, God's commands are to be submissively received, not to be argued against. The apostle says, "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counsellor?" Romans 11:34 Whether, then, the reason was what I have said, or whether in the secret appointment of God, there was some unknown reason for His telling the people by Moses to borrow things from the Egyptians, and to take them away with them, this remains certain, that this was said for some good reason, and that Moses could not lawfully have done otherwise than God told him, leaving to God the reason of the command, while the servant's duty is to obey.

    72. But, says Faustus, it cannot be admitted that the true God, who is also good, ever gave such a command. I answer, such a command can be rightly given by no other than the true and good God, who alone knows the suitable command in every case, and who alone is incapable of inflicting unmerited suffering on any one. This ignorant and spurious goodness of the human heart may as well deny what Christ says, and object to the wicked being made to suffer by the good God, when He shall say to the angels, "Gather first the tares into bundles to burn them." The servants, however, were stopped when they wished to do this prematurely: "Lest by chance, when you would gather the tares, you root up the wheat also with them." Matthew 13:29-30 Thus the true and good God alone knows when, to whom, and by whom to order anything, or to permit anything. In the same way, this human goodness, or folly rather, might object to the Lord's permitting the devils to enter the swine, which they asked to be allowed to do with a mischievous intent, Matthew 8:31-32 especially as the Manichæans believe that not only pigs, but the vilest insects, have human souls. But setting aside these absurd notions, this is undeniable, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the only son of God, and therefore the true and good God, permitted the destruction of swine belonging to strangers, implying loss of life and of a great amount of property, at the request of devils. No one can be so insane as to suppose that Christ could not have driven the devils out of the men without gratifying their malice by the destruction of the swine. If, then, the Creator and Governor of all natures, in His superintendence, which, though mysterious, is ever just, indulged the violent and unjust inclination of those lost spirits already doomed to eternal fire, why should not the Egyptians, who were unrighteous oppressors, be spoiled by the Hebrews, a free people, who would claim payment for their enforced and painful toil, especially as the earthly possessions which they thus lost were used by the Egyptians in their impious rites, to the dishonor of the Creator? Still, if Moses had originated this order, or if the people had done it spontaneously, undoubtedly it would have been sinful; and perhaps the people did sin, not in doing what God commanded or permitted, but in some desire of their own for what they took. The permission given to this action by divine authority was in accordance with the just and good counsel of Him who uses punishments both to restrain the wicked and to educate His own people; who knows also how to give more advanced precepts to those able to bear them, while He begins on a lower scale in the treatment of the feeble. As for Moses, he can be blamed neither for coveting the property, nor for disputing, in any instance, the divine authority.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #11 on: November 24, 2021, 08:51:18 PM »
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  • Kill Them All!  (on the ‘Dark Passages’ of the Bible)

    By Brother Andre Marie


    https://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-267.html



    Much attention has been given to the so-called “dark passages” of the Bible in recent years. This is largely due to the use put to these passages by the enemies of the Christian name, by which I mean the aggressive, new-fangled atheists, who lately write pompous books against God, and get further media attention in order to attack Him. The “dark passages” are those parts of Holy Scripture wherein God appears to demand, do, or allow shocking things, acts that would normally — outside of the context of a divine sanction — be forbidden by His own law.

    One might categorize these passages under different headings, but the ones I am interested in now are those which testify to God commanding the slaughter of all of the inhabitants of a place, including children and sometimes even animals.

    Here are some specific passages to consider (all the links will take the reader to the Douay Old Testament):




    Numbers 31, which relates the war against the Madianites, a war of God’s own vengeance against Madian (vs. 2-3). When the victorious Israelite army of 12,000 slays only the men, Moses was angered and ordered the slaying of all the male children and all the women who were not virgins, whereas the virgin women and girls are allowed to live (vs. 17-18).



    Deuteronomy 7:1-2, wherein it is said concerning certain people inhabiting Canaan that “God shall have delivered them to thee, thou shalt utterly destroy them. Thou shalt make no league with them, nor shew mercy to them.”


    Josue 6:16-20, which relates Josue’s command to the Israelites conquering Jericho: “And let this city be an anathema, and all things that are in it, to the Lord,” sparing only Rahab the harlot and her house. Accordingly, the Israelites, “killed all that were in it, man and woman, young and old. The oxen also and the sheep, and the asses, they slew with the edge of the sword.”


    • I Kings (I Samuel) 15:1-3, where God Himself commands King Saul through the Prophet Samuel to “smite Amalec, and utterly destroy all that he hath: spare him not, nor covet any thing that is his: but slay both man and woman, child and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (Later in that same chapter, God drives the point home very dramatically when, upon Saul’s disobedience for allowing the Amalec King Agag to survive, and allowing the people to take certain animals to offer to God in sacrifice, Saul is stripped of the kingship. Samuel himself did what Saul should have done: “And Samuel hewed [Agag] in pieces before the Lord in Galgal” (v. 23).





    Not an exhaustive list, but it is certainly representative of the “worst” of such sections. These passages are shocking, and I dare say that we should find them so. Better than that, we should find them challenging, and we ought to be willing to accept the challenge to our faith of reading them and discerning what it is that God wishes to teach us by means of them.

    We approach this subject in the sprit of Saint Augustine, whom Ven. Pope Pius XII thus paraphrased in his 1943 encyclical on Biblical studies, Divino Afflante Spiritu (45):
    “God wished difficulties to be scattered through the Sacred Books inspired by Him, in order that we might be urged to read and scrutinize them more intently, and, experiencing in a salutary manner our own limitations, we might be exercised in due submission of mind. No wonder if of one or other question no solution wholly satisfactory will ever be found, since sometimes we have to do with matters obscure in themselves and too remote from our times and our experience; and since exegesis also, like all other most important sciences, has its secrets, which, impenetrable to our minds, by no efforts whatsoever can be unraveled.”

    What can we say of this supposedly “genocidal” war policy against Moabites, Madianites, Canaanites, etc.?

    God is good. He is good in ways that are clear for us to understand, and He is good in ways that are difficult to understand. (This is the lesson of the Book of Job.) In the book of Wisdom, Chapter 12, Solomon the Wise takes up this very question concerning how God dealt with “those ancient inhabitants of thy holy land” (v. 3): “For who shall say to thee: What hast thou done? or who shall withstand thy judgment? or who shall come before thee to be a revenger of wicked men? or who shall accuse thee, if the nations perish, which thou hast made? For there is no other God but thou, who hast care of all, that thou shouldst shew that thou dost not give judgment unjustly. Neither shall king, nor tyrant in thy sight inquire about them whom thou hast destroyed. For so much then as thou art just, thou orderest all things justly: thinking it not agreeable to thy power, to condemn him who deserveth not to be punished” (12-15). The entirety of this chapter is worth reading and meditating on, as it directly concerns this subject.

    As the author of life, who has sovereign rights concerning the death of creatures He brought into being, God can preventively or consequently will any kind of death He chooses for His creatures. He is God. We read in Father Challoner’s commentary for I Kings 15: “The great Master of life and death (who cuts off one half of all mankind whilst they are children) has been pleased sometimes to ordain that children should be put to the sword, in detestation of the crimes of their parents, and that they might not live to follow the same wicked ways. But without such ordinance of God it is not allowable, in any wars, how just soever, to kill children.”

    Personally, I find Father Challoner’s explanation entirely satisfactory to “vindicate” God’s justice. Not everybody does.

    In an effort to gain further understanding, we ought to put these passages in their historical context.

    Canaan belonged to Abraham’s descendants because of the divine promise made in Gen. 15:18. Notably, God says in that same conversation with Abraham that his ancestors will be captives for 400 years (in Egypt, though God does not name the nation), and will then return to this land, which they cannot now inhabit, “for as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full until this present time” (Gen. 15:16). Four hundred years later, the iniquities of the inhabitants of that land are full, and God judges them harshly for abusing their free will.

    In the meantime, at least one pagan king (Abimelech, the Philistine king of Gerara) realizes that “the Lord is with” Isaac (Gen. 26:28), and makes a covenant with him. This could well indicate that the inhabitants of those lands knew that they lived in a place promised to Isaac’s father’s people, or, alternatively, it shows that God made it so obvious that He was with His chosen ones that even these pagans could see it. (Let us recall that, later, God made it obvious to the Egyptians that He wanted Pharaoh to let His people go, but Pharaoh did not relent, so he and his people were punished severely, as God had foretold to Abraham back in Genesis 15.)

    By the time Josue comes to claim the city of Jericho, the inhabitants well know that the Israelites are coming to make their claim. God has made it quite obvious to them, and has given them plenty of time to get out of the way. It is so evident that Rahab the harlot can see it (“I know that the Lord hath given this land to you: for the dread of you is fallen upon us, and all the inhabitants of the land have lost all strength” [Josue 2:9]); she therefore helps the Israelite spies. Read Josue 2:8-14 to see how obvious God made it to the inhabitants of Jericho that God had given this land to the Israelites. Some of the inhabitants of the land accepted the faith of Abraham, were incorporated into God’s people, and were spared. Rahab the harlot — who foreshadows the Gentile Church — is one such (along with her father’s household), and she enters into the human genealogy of Jesus (Matt. 1:5).

    Why could not the other remaining inhabitants of the land know what the harlot knew? They could, and likely did, but they had bad will, just as the Egyptians who held Israel captive did.

    The participle “remaining” was purposely used to describe the denizens of Jericho just now, for some read Josue 6:1 to indicate that many had been fleeing Jericho before the city was besieged. There are indications that many, perhaps even most, of the Canaanites got the message and departed before Israel.

    According to Old Testament scholar, Dr. Nathan Schmiedickie, “Modern archaeology supports the view that what is presented as a conquest in the Bible mostly took the form of a peaceful migration. (Note, this is often presented as being contradictory to the Biblical account, but it isn’t necessarily.). Certainly there were battles and such, and certainly there were Canaanites who did not leave, but for the most part, the Canaanites recognized the rights of Abraham and his descendants to the land and either took the hint and moved to a new location or, as in the case of Rahab’s household and the Gibeonites, made a covenant of peace with Israel. The Bible is, on the other hand, equally clear that there were many Canaanite groups that never left the land (Judges 1:19-31).”

    Again Solomon the Wise helps us out here: “Yet even those [Canaanites] thou sparedst as men, and didst send wasps, forerunners of thy host, to destroy them by little and little. Not that thou wast unable to bring the wicked under the just by war, or by cruel beasts, or with one rough word to destroy them at once: But executing thy judgments by degrees thou gavest them place of repentance, not being ignorant that they were a wicked generation, and their malice natural, and that their thought could never be changed” (Wisdom 12:8-10).

    The conclusion of all this is that we are not talking about a wholesale slaughter of Canaanites who rose up to defend their land against a people concerning whose just claims they were ignorant. No, it seems that the majority of Canaanites recognized either the just claims, or at least the grave threat, of the Israelites and fled, leaving behind relatively few, who were the rich and powerful (Josue 6:2) — and likely only some of them. These holders on rejected the claims of Abraham, and thus rejected the God of Abraham. They would, as is clear from Scripture, strive to destroy God’s people and deny them their God-given Land. The stern and harsh “ban” (Heb.: cherem), which called for (among other things) the annihilation of these people included their wives and children. These shared the fate of their foolish men because a father’s decisions affect the family for good or for ill. (Yes, God’s revealed religion is patriarchal.)

    This Ad Rem has already gone longer than I prefer to keep them. I have some other thoughts on the “dark passages” posted on our site. Click here to read my Column.


    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #12 on: November 24, 2021, 09:06:31 PM »
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  • Douay-Rheims

    http://drbo.org/chapter/01022.htm


    Genesis 22

    [1] After these things, God tempted Abraham, and said to him: Abraham, Abraham. And he answered: Here I am. [2] He said to him: Take thy only begotten son Isaac. . .



    I cannot understand why Isaac is called Abraham's only begotten son. Agar was truly his wife, therefore Ismael was truly his son.


    Genesis 16



    Quote
    [1] Now Sarai the wife of Abram, had brought forth no children; but having a handmaid, an Egyptian, named Agar, [2] She said to her husband: Behold, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: go in unto my handmaid, it may be I may have children of her at least. And when he agreed to her request, [3] She took Agar the Egyptian her handmaid, ten years after they first dwelt in the land of Chanaan, and gave her to her husband to wife. [4] And he went in to her. But she, perceiving that she was with child, despised her mistress. [5] And Sarai said to Abram: Thou dost unjustly with me: I gave my handmaid into thy bosom, and she perceiving herself to be with child, despiseth me. The Lord judge between me and thee.

    [. . .]

    [16] Abram was four score and six years old when Agar brought him forth Ismael.

    Quote
    [3] "To wife": Plurality of wives, though contrary to the primitive institution of marriage, Gen. 2. 24, was by divine dispensation allowed to the patriarchs: which allowance seems to have continued during the time of the law of Moses. But Christ our Lord reduced marriage to its primitive institution. Matt. 19.




    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #13 on: November 24, 2021, 09:20:46 PM »
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  • Kill Them All!  (on the ‘Dark Passages’ of the Bible)

    By Brother Andre Marie


    https://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-267.html



    In the comments underneath the article:




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    Elijah fan Guest 3 years ago • edited



    We are getting nowhere. So I’ll answer your question 2 which I did already implicitly. Yes if I was without sanctifying grace brought by Christ and was under the Sinai Covenant, I would massacre women and children if Commanded by God. Elijah killed hundreds of idolaters with the help of the Word who then later as Christ strictly forbade his disciples to bring down fire from heaven on the inhospitable Samaritan town in Luke 9 even though Christ as Word helped Elijah kill two groups of fifty one idolaters with lightning from the skies. Most Catholics do not love the word sufficiently to read it entirely despite their reading hundreds of pounds of secular writings. That’s the problem. I don’t I don’t know one who has read even 30% of scripture and the Mass cycle carries a tiny percent as a Catholic priest demonstrated. I have other responsibilities that preclude endless dialogue here.


    1st Book of Kings (1 Samuel)

    Chapter 15



    http://www.drbo.org/chapter/09015.htm

    Quote
    [1] And Samuel said to Saul: The Lord sent me to anoint thee king over his People Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the Lord: [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts: I have reckoned up all that Amalec hath done to Israel: how he opposed them in the way when they came up out of Egypt. [3] Now therefore go, and smite Amalec, and utterly destroy all that he hath: spare him not, nor covet any thing that is his: but slay both man and woman, child and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


    [3] "Child": The great Master of life and death (who cuts off one half of all mankind whilst they are children) has been pleased sometimes to ordain that children should be put to the sword, in detestation of the crimes of their parents, and that they might not live to follow the same wicked ways. But without such ordinance of God it is not allowable, in any wars, how just soever, to kill children.





    If we were Israelite men during the time the command was given, could we dissent from carrying out such a command, without sin?







    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Jephthah sacrificing his daughter
    « Reply #14 on: November 24, 2021, 09:30:49 PM »
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  • St. Augustine, Contra Faustum, Book XXII

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/140622.htm



    Quote
    73. According to the eternal law, which requires the preservation of natural order, and forbids the transgression of it, some actions have an indifferent character, so that men are blamed for presumption if they do them without being called upon, while they are deservedly praised for doing them when required. The act, the agent, and the authority for the action are all of great importance in the order of nature.

    For Abraham to sacrifice his son of his own accord is shocking madness. His doing so at the command of God proves him faithful and submissive. This is so loudly proclaimed by the very voice of truth, that Faustus, eagerly rummaging for some fault, and reduced at last to slanderous charges, has not the boldness to attack this action. It is scarcely possible that he can have forgotten a deed so famous, that it recurs to the mind of itself without any study or reflection, and is in fact repeated by so many tongues, and portrayed in so many places, that no one can pretend to shut his eyes or his ears to it. If, therefore, while Abraham's killing his son of his own accord would have been unnatural, his doing it at the command of God shows not only guiltless but praiseworthy compliance, why does Faustus blame Moses for spoiling the Egyptians?

    Your feeling of disapproval for the mere human action should be restrained by a regard for the divine sanction. Will you venture to blame God Himself for desiring such actions? Then "Get behind me, Satan, for you understand not the things which be of God, but those which be of men." Would that this rebuke might accomplish in you what it did in Peter, and that you might hereafter preach the truth concerning God, which you now, judging by feeble sense, find fault with! As Peter became a zealous messenger to announce to the Gentiles what he objected to at first, when the Lord spoke of it as His intention.

    74. Now, if this explanation suffices to satisfy human obstinacy and perverse misinterpretation of right actions of the vast difference between the indulgence of passion and presumption on the part of men, and obedience to the command of God, who knows what to permit or to order, and also the time and the persons, and the due action or suffering in each case, the account of the wars of Moses will not excite surprise or abhorrence, for in wars carried on by divine command, he showed not ferocity but obedience; and God in giving the command, acted not in cruelty, but in righteous retribution, giving to all what they deserved, and warning those who needed warning. What is the evil in war? Is it the death of some who will soon die in any case, that others may live in peaceful subjection? This is mere cowardly dislike, not any religious feeling. The real evils in war are love of violence, revengeful cruelty, fierce and implacable enmity, wild resistance, and the lust of power, and such like; and it is generally to punish these things, when force is required to inflict the punishment, that, in obedience to God or some lawful authority, good men undertake wars, when they find themselves in such a position as regards the conduct of human affairs, that right conduct requires them to act, or to make others act in this way.


    Otherwise John, when the soldiers who came to be baptized asked, What shall we do? Would have replied, Throw away your arms; give up the service; never strike, or wound, or disable any one. But knowing that such actions in battle were not murderous but authorized by law, and that the soldiers did not thus avenge themselves, but defend the public safety, he replied, "Do violence to no man, accuse no man falsely, and be content with your wages." Luke 3:14 But as the Manichæans are in the habit of speaking evil of John, let them hear the Lord Jesus Christ Himself ordering this money to be given to Cæsar, which John tells the soldiers to be content with. "Give," He says, "to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar's." Matthew 22:21 For tribute-money is given on purpose to pay the soldiers for war. Again, in the case of the centurion who said, "I am a man under authority, and have soldiers under me: and I say to one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my servant, Do this, and he does it," Christ gave due praise to his faith; Matthew 8:9-10 He did not tell him to leave the service. But there is no need here to enter on the long discussion of just and unjust ways.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.