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Author Topic: Holy Ghost or Spirit?  (Read 17784 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2018, 09:41:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 02, 2018, 07:27:35 AM
    It seems to me that you are making a valid enough argument regarding purely linguistic aspects of the issue, but are not giving sufficient weight to non-linguistic factors.  The expression "Holy Ghost" is a shibboleth.

    In the United States only, and one that is even more likely to identify someone as a Pentecostalist Protestant.

    So you're saying that this is some secret Masonic-like handshake among Traditional Catholics.

    Again, you've missed that I use Holy Ghost among Traditional Catholics, so as not to cause offense or stir things up, but that Holy Spirit is my personal preference for the reasons stated.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #106 on: July 04, 2018, 02:45:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 04, 2018, 09:39:39 AM
    Sometimes, but sometimes (more often than not IMO) these emotional reactions are wrong and irrational.  That is why a rational discussion is called for ... to assess the validity of said emotional reaction.
    The dismissing of 1000+ years of English speaking saints, priests, theologians, professors, doctors, lawyers, intellectuals of every kind  who used Holy Ghost, because it reminds you of of Casper the friendly Ghost? That's rational?
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #107 on: July 04, 2018, 03:58:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 01, 2018, 09:41:14 AM
    The Haydock bible you quoted is not the original Douay-Rheims, it is a revised edition from the late 1800's. The same with the New Advent quotes, except they are translations from the early 20th century.

    Who taught you to use Holy Spirit?



    1582 Douai Rheims, 2 of 3

    https://archive.org/details/1582DouaiRheimsDouayRheimsFirstEdition3Of31582NewTestament

    pg. 100

    Quote
    Psalm 50:13 Caft me not away from thy face and thy Holie fpirit take not from me.

    pg. 345

    Quote
    Wisdom 1:5  For the Holie Ghoft of difcipline, wil flie from him that feyneth, and wil withdraw himfelfe from the cogitations, that are without vnderftanding, and he shal be chaftened of iniquitie enfewing.

    pg. 356

    Quote
    Wisdom 9:17 And thy fenfe who shall know, vnles tou geue wifdom. and fend thy holie fpirit from on high



    1582 Douai Rheims, 3 of 3

    https://archive.org/details/1582DouaiRheimsDouayRheimsFirstEdition3Of31582NewTestament

    pg. 467

    Quote
    Ephesians 1:13 in whom you alfo, when you had heard the word of truth (the Ghofpel of your faluation: ) in which alfo beleeuing you were figned with the holy Spirit of promife,


    pg. 472


    Quote
    Ephesians 4:30 And contriftate not the holy Spirit of God: in which you are figned vnto the day of redemption.

    pg. 474

    Quote
    Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunke with wine wherin is riotoufines, but be filled with the Spirit,


    pg. 500

    Quote
    First Epistle of St. Paul to the Thessalonians

    4:8

    Therfore he that defpifeth thefe things, defpifeth not man but God, who alfo hath giuen his holy Spirit in vs
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #108 on: July 04, 2018, 04:16:46 PM »
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    • Off topic, found this:

    Jean De Caumont, The Firme Foundation of Catholike Religion [1607-08]

    https://archive.org/details/TheFirmFoundationOfTheCatholicReligion

    pg. 1


    Quote
    THE FIRME FOVNDATION OF CATHOLIKE RELIGION AGAINST THE BOTTOMLLES pitt of herefies, wherein is fnewed that onlye Catholikes fhal be faued, and that all heretikes of what fect foeuer are excluded fro the knigdome of heauen.


    Look at that, 1607, it was said only Catholics shall be saved.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #109 on: July 04, 2018, 04:32:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on July 04, 2018, 03:58:41 PM
    1582 Douai Rheims, 3 of 3

    https://archive.org/details/1582DouaiRheimsDouayRheimsFirstEdition3Of31582NewTestament

    pg 501


    Quote
    Annotations 1 Thessalonians 4

    8 Not man but God. He that defpifeth the Churches or her lawful Paftours precepts, fendeth no leffe then if he contenned God's expreffe commandments. For they be of the Holy Ghoft, and are not to be counted among the commandements of men only

    Look at the quote earlier, pg. 500. The verse said holy Spirit. The Holy Ghost and holy Spirit are one and the same.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #110 on: July 04, 2018, 04:38:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on July 04, 2018, 04:16:46 PM
    Off topic, found this:

    Jean De Caumont, The Firme Foundation of Catholike Religion [1607-08]

    https://archive.org/details/TheFirmFoundationOfTheCatholicReligion

    pg. 1



    Look at that, 1607, it was said only Catholics shall be saved.
    Actually, it's been said since around A.D. 33, even before people started calling us Catholics.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #111 on: July 04, 2018, 05:34:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 04, 2018, 02:45:58 PM
    The dismissing of 1000+ years of English speaking saints, priests, theologians, professors, doctors, lawyers, intellectuals of every kind  who used Holy Ghost, because it reminds you of of Casper the friendly Ghost? That's rational?

    Uhm, yeah, because vernacular spoken languages change.  I'm sure that some extremely gαy priests used the term Holy Spirit long ago, priests who were in the habit of ejaculating many times a day.  I'm not dismissing anything.  Do I have to post 10 more times that I have no major problem using Holy Ghost and will do so if in the company of those who prefer the term?  Holy Spirit is my personal preference.  Take it up with the pre-Vatican II bishops who granted imprimaturs to Catholic books that used the term Holy Spirit if it was unacceptable.  BOTH terms have been in use, even going back to the Douay Rheims Bible, and neither one has ever been condemned by the Church.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #112 on: July 04, 2018, 06:49:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on July 04, 2018, 04:32:22 PM
    pg 501


    Look at the quote earlier, pg. 500. The verse said holy Spirit. The Holy Ghost and holy Spirit are one and the same.
    Page 500 reads in the 1889 D-R with the same holy Spirit:
    [font=&quot,serif]8 [/font][/color][/sup][/b]Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Spirit in us.

    If it is interchangble with Holy Ghost then read it back as "Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Ghost in us.

    It would make no sense that way, read my earlier posting:




    Quote
    Last Tradhican wrote:
    Our English speaking Catholic forebears did use holy Spirit, when God is acting, but they always used Holy Ghost, when God is resting or referred to as an individual. Ghosts are more personal, whereas spirits are more impersonal. A ghost is more substantial than a spirit. Ghosts do not animate others, whereas spirits, do. One does not say that, “the ghost of God danced over the water,”  when the, “spirit of God,” which is mentioned in the Old Testament. We are talking here of the English language.








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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #113 on: July 04, 2018, 08:28:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 04, 2018, 06:49:11 PM

    If it is interchangble with Holy Ghost then read it back as "Therefore, he that despiseth these things, despiseth not man, but God, who also hath given his holy Ghost in us.

    It would make no sense that way, read my earlier posting:

    St. Ambrose

    On the Holy Spirit, Book 3

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34023.htm

    Chapter 2. 

    The Son and the Spirit are alike given; whence not subjection but one Godhead is shown by Its working. 

    9. And not only did the Father send the Son, but also gave Him, as the Son Himself gave Himself. For we read: Grace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for our sins. Galatians 1:3-4 If they think that He was subject in that He was sent, they cannot deny that it was of grace that He was given. But He was given by the Father, as Isaiah said: Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; Isaiah 9:6 but He was given, I dare to say it, by the Spirit also, Who was sent by the Spirit. For since the prophet has not defined by whom He was given, he shows that He was given by the grace of the Trinity; and inasmuch as the Son Himself gave Himself, He could not be subject to Himself according to His Godhead. Therefore that He was given could not be a sign of subjection in the God-head. 

    10. But the Holy Spirit also was given, for it is written: I will ask the Father, and He shall give you another Paraclete. John 14:16 And the Apostle says: Wherefore he that despises these things despises not man but God, Who has given us His Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Isaiah, too, shows that both the Spirit and the Son are given: Thus, says he, says the Lord God, Who made the heaven and fashioned it, Who established the earth, and the things which are in it, and gives breath to the people upon it, and the Spirit to them that walk upon it. Isaiah 42:5 And to the Son: I am the Lord God, Who have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will strengthen You; and I have given You for a covenant of My people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out of their fetters those that are bound. Isaiah 42:6-7 Since, then, the Son is both sent and given, and the Spirit also is both sent and given, They have assuredly a oneness of Godhead Who have a oneness of action. 
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #114 on: July 04, 2018, 08:55:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on July 04, 2018, 08:28:24 PM
    St. Ambrose

    On the Holy Spirit, Book 3

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/34023.htm

    Chapter 2.

    The Son and the Spirit are alike given; whence not subjection but one Godhead is shown by Its working.

    9. And not only did the Father send the Son, but also gave Him, as the Son Himself gave Himself. For we read: Grace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for our sins. Galatians 1:3-4 If they think that He was subject in that He was sent, they cannot deny that it was of grace that He was given. But He was given by the Father, as Isaiah said: Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; Isaiah 9:6 but He was given, I dare to say it, by the Spirit also, Who was sent by the Spirit. For since the prophet has not defined by whom He was given, he shows that He was given by the grace of the Trinity; and inasmuch as the Son Himself gave Himself, He could not be subject to Himself according to His Godhead. Therefore that He was given could not be a sign of subjection in the God-head.

    10. But the Holy Spirit also was given, for it is written: I will ask the Father, and He shall give you another Paraclete. John 14:16 And the Apostle says: Wherefore he that despises these things despises not man but God, Who has given us His Holy Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Isaiah, too, shows that both the Spirit and the Son are given: Thus, says he, says the Lord God, Who made the heaven and fashioned it, Who established the earth, and the things which are in it, and gives breath to the people upon it, and the Spirit to them that walk upon it. Isaiah 42:5 And to the Son: I am the Lord God, Who have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will strengthen You; and I have given You for a covenant of My people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out of their fetters those that are bound. Isaiah 42:6-7 Since, then, the Son is both sent and given, and the Spirit also is both sent and given, They have assuredly a oneness of Godhead Who have a oneness of action.
    St. Ambrose didn't speak English. 

    Change Ghost for Spirit in what you wrote and you will see that they are not interchangeable. There are many spirits but only one Holy Ghost.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #115 on: July 04, 2018, 09:17:43 PM »
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    • Paraclete.

    HELLO?

    Really?

    What part of "oneness of Godhead" is not registering here?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #116 on: July 04, 2018, 09:25:24 PM »
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    • The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Kindle Locations 1397-1404). Kindle Edition.


    Quote
    ARTICLE VIII: I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY GHOST


    ( . . . )

    "Holy Ghost"

    The exposition of this Article, therefore, should begin with the force and meaning here attached to the words Holy Ghost. This appellation is equally true when applied to the Father and the Son, since both are spirit, both holy, and we confess that God is a Spirit; this name may also be applied to Angels, and the souls of the just. Care must be taken, therefore, that the faithful be not led into error by the ambiguity of the words.

    The pastor, then, should teach that by the words Holy Ghost in this Article is understood the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, a sense in which they are used, sometimes in the Old, and frequently in the New Testament. Thus David prays: Take not thy Holy Spirit from me; and in the Book of Wisdom we read: Who shall know thy thoughts, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #117 on: July 04, 2018, 09:30:54 PM »
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    • Liguori, St Alphonsus. The History of Heresies and Their Refutation or The Triumph of the Church (Kindle Locations 9496-9503). Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.



    Quote
    8. Another strong proof of the Divinity of the Holy Ghost is, that the Scriptures attribute to him qualities which belong alone by nature to God : First Immensity, which fills the world : " Do not I fill the heaven and the earth, saith the Lord ?" (Jer. xxiii, 24). And the Scripture then says that the Holy Ghost fills the world : " For the Spirit of the Lord hath filled the whole world" (Wisdom, i, 7). Therefore the Holy Ghost is God. St. Ambrose says (22) : " Of what creature can it be said what is written of the Holy Ghost, that he filled all things ? I will pour forth my Spirit over all flesh, &c., for it is the Lord alone can fill all things, who says, I fill the heaven and the earth." Besides, we read in the Acts (ii, 4), "They were all filled with the Holy Ghost." "Do we ever hear," says Didimus, "the Scriptures say, filled by a creature ? The Scriptures never speak in this way." They were, therefore, filled with God, and this God was the Holy Spirit.

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #118 on: July 04, 2018, 09:43:38 PM »
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #119 on: July 04, 2018, 10:06:07 PM »
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    • 1582 Douai Rheims, 3 of 3

    pg. 233-234


    Quote
    John 14:16 And I wil aske the Father, and he wil giue you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you foreuer,

    17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receiue becaufe it feeth him not, neither knoweth him, but you know him: becaufe he fhal abide with you, and fhal be in you.

    (. . .)

    26 But the Paraclete the Holy Ghoft, whom the Father wil fend in my name, he fhal teach you al things, and fuggeft vnto you al things whatfoeuer I fhal fay to you.


    THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
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