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Author Topic: Holy Ghost or Spirit?  (Read 17772 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2018, 12:57:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2018, 12:21:40 PM
    And the answer should have been evident in my post.  I have encountered both terms in approved books and over time developed a preference for Holy Spirit ... most likely due to it being closest to the Latin, since I generally pray in Latin.  This really isn't that difficult.
    Yes, the same as almost all Catholics today who believe that Jews and Hindus can be saved, because they learned it on their own from approved books and over time developed a preference for the belief.

    I learned Holy Ghost in catechism class when I was a kid, and forgot all about religion for the next 30 years till I came back to the Church, and then Fr. Carl Pulvermacher reminded me again of what I had learned.  Today, I cringe when a person says Holy Spirit during the rosary, because I never hear it among the people I go to mass with. That is why I posted on the subject here.  

    What did they say about your preference in the seminary?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #91 on: July 01, 2018, 01:01:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 01, 2018, 12:57:19 PM
    Yes, the same as almost all Catholics today who believe that Jews and Hindus can be saved, ...

    That's ridiculous.  Stop trying to put doctrinal errors into the same category as a choice of phrase, neither of which has been pronounced inaccurate or unacceptable by the Church.  Next you'll be debating whether to use "safeguard" or "protection" in the prayer to St. Michael.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #92 on: July 01, 2018, 01:02:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 01, 2018, 12:57:19 PM
    Today, I cringe when a person says Holy Spirit during the rosary, ...

    You need to stop thinking with your emotions as women are inclined to do.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #93 on: July 01, 2018, 01:05:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2018, 01:01:07 PM
    That's ridiculous.  Stop trying to put doctrinal errors into the same category as a choice of phrase, neither of which has been pronounced inaccurate or unacceptable by the Church.  Next you'll be debating whether to use "safeguard" or "protection" in the prayer to St. Michael.
    Salvation by belief in a God the rewards has not been declared a doctrinal error, and it has been used much longer that Holy Spirit in English. Just becaue you find Holy Spirit in English in a book written in the 1940's does not change the fact that the lay people did not use it. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #94 on: July 01, 2018, 01:16:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2018, 01:02:26 PM
    You need to stop thinking with your emotions as women are inclined to do.
    I think I hit a nerve.  That's not a response from you,  it is the tactic that Croix de Fer uses on you. Don't let it get to you. It has no effect on me.

    I cringe, like if someone scratched the chalkboard or sang out of tune,  because it is very unusual in my circles, maybe once a year. It is always new people and they change very quickly, I just wish their attire changed as fast.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #95 on: July 01, 2018, 04:23:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 01, 2018, 01:16:47 PM
    I think I hit a nerve. That's not a response from you,  it is the tactic that Croix de Fer uses on you.

    Cringing is an emotional reaction, not a rational argument.  There was no nerve struck.  I simply don't recognize emotional observations such as your "cringing" as adding any value to the discussion.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #96 on: July 01, 2018, 06:28:57 PM »
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    • There's always going to be someone that is different and disagrees on anything that is discussed, in this conversation I don't think there is one person that would use Holy Spirit in leading a rosary at an  SSPX,  Independent or Sede chapel, not even you Ladislaus, right? Women do not count since they do not lead group rosaries. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #97 on: July 01, 2018, 06:42:08 PM »
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    • I was just looking at 12 different missals I have from 1938, 1938, 1939, 1942, 1945, 1948, 1950, 1953, 1953, 1956, 1959, 1959 all use Holy Ghost. I know the Marian Missal of 1962 that the SSPX uses says Holy Ghost, as well as all the missalettes I see in all trad chapels.  

    I have a 1966 missal and it says Holy Spirit. When did they all change to Holy Spirit?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #98 on: July 01, 2018, 06:49:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 01, 2018, 06:28:57 PM
    There's always going to be someone that is different and disagrees on anything that is discussed, in this conversation I don't think there is one person that would use Holy Spirit in leading a rosary at an  SSPX,  Independent or Sede chapel, not even you right?

    I already posted earlier that I follow the custom of wherever I happen to be at, and that the use of Holy Spirit is my personal preference when praying alone and not in Latin.  When I've prayed the Rosary with a group at an Eastern Rite church, I have used Holy Spirit ... and also made the sign of the cross from right to left and bowed instead of genuflecting.

    And you could include women in this question as well, as in, hypothetically if you were a man leading the Rosary.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #99 on: July 01, 2018, 06:55:59 PM »
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    • And, you know, the personal preference can be somewhat subjective as well.  Whenever I see or hear the word ghost,  I can't help but thinking of people dressed in sheets at Halloween and of Casper the Friendly Ghost ... and the like.  So I find that connotation unpleasant when trying to pray.

    And how about this for another archaic term that I eschew.  I don't typically go around telling people that I make frequent ejaculations throughout the day or "The Church grants indulgences for ejaculations."  For someone unacquainted with the term, you can see how this might cause scandal rather than edification.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #100 on: July 01, 2018, 07:32:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2018, 06:55:59 PM
    And, you know, the personal preference can be somewhat subjective as well.  Whenever I see or hear the word ghost,  I can't help but thinking of people dressed in sheets at Halloween and of Casper the Friendly Ghost ... and the like.  So I find that connotation unpleasant when trying to pray.
    I never saw Casper the friendly Ghost nor associated his name with God.  Our English speaking Catholic forebears did use holy Spirit, when God is acting, but they always used Holy Ghost, when God is resting or referred to as an individual. Ghosts are more personal, whereas spirits are more impersonal. A ghost is more substantial than a spirit. Ghosts do not animate others, whereas spirits, do. One does not say that, “the ghost of God danced over the water,”  when the, “spirit of God,” is mentioned in the Old Testament. We are talking here of the English language.


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #101 on: July 01, 2018, 08:34:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 01, 2018, 07:32:40 PM
    A ghost is more substantial than a spirit.

    Correct.  And that's why I argue it's less appropriate to apply to God than Spirit.  If you knew anything about scholastic Catholic theology, you'd know that God does NOT have a substance or essence but merely existence.  Substance by definition circuмscribes and limits a being.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #102 on: July 02, 2018, 07:27:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2018, 04:23:45 PM
    Cringing is an emotional reaction, not a rational argument.  There was no nerve struck.  I simply don't recognize emotional observations such as your "cringing" as adding any value to the discussion.

    Emotional reactions very well may be relevant and important.  That is often the way a sensus catholicus manifests itself.  While one wants to further support it with a rational argument, the input from emotion should not be automatically dismissed.

    It seems to me that you are making a valid enough argument regarding purely linguistic aspects of the issue, but are not giving sufficient weight to non-linguistic factors.  The expression "Holy Ghost" is a shibboleth.

    For those unfamiliar with the term, see the Wikipedia article:

    Quote
    A shibboleth (/ˈʃɪbəlɛθ, -ɪθ/ ( listen))[1][2] is any custom or tradition, particularly a speech pattern, that distinguishes one group of people (an ingroup) from others (outgroups).[3][4][5] Shibboleths have been used throughout history in many societies as passwords, simple ways of self-identification, signalling loyalty and affinity, maintaining traditional segregation or to keep out perceived threats.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth 
    (I recommend reading further than I have quoted, especially about the Biblical origin of the term.)

    You are getting the push back that we see in this thread because you are rejecting a term that we use to self-identify as trads and signals our loyalty and affinity to that position.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #103 on: July 04, 2018, 08:17:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on July 01, 2018, 06:42:08 PM
    I was just looking at 12 different missals I have from 1938, 1938, 1939, 1942, 1945, 1948, 1950, 1953, 1953, 1956, 1959, 1959 all use Holy Ghost. I know the Marian Missal of 1962 that the SSPX uses says Holy Ghost, as well as all the missalettes I see in all trad chapels.  

    I have a 1966 missal and it says Holy Spirit. When did they all change to Holy Spirit?
    I finally had a chance to search the King James and Douay-Rheims Bibles available online for the term "Holy Ghost".  I note that in the versions I found online, the King James bible refers to the "holy Ghost", the word, holy, is not capitalized; whereas, the Douay-Rheims bibles I found all capitalize, Holy.  Given how grammar has changed over the centuries, I'm not sure how significant this is but it appears that the Protestants consider "holy" as a mere adjective while Catholics consider "Holy" as part of His very Name.

    The King James bible contains 78 uses of the phrase while the Douay-Rheims bible contains 89 uses.

    It is interesting to me that, while the Protestant bible clearly identifies the "holy Ghost", every Protestant I've ever heard refer to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity has verbally used, "holy Spirit" or, simply, "the Spirit".

    As to the question, when did "they all change to Holy Spirit?", I note that an elderly gentleman at my parish tells me that in the early 1960s, when he was in high school, the pastor told his class that, for now on, they would all say, "Holy Spirit" because they didn't want to "scare" children.  My friend said that everyone in the class thought that was just plain silly.  He said sometime in 1965, the pastor handed out a sheet with the English language responses for the Mass and told them to learn these as this is how they will respond beginning the following month at daily Mass for the school.  He told me that none of the kids paid any attention because they thought he was playing a joke, but he was very mad at them when he started saying Mass in English and no one knew the responses.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #104 on: July 04, 2018, 09:39:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 02, 2018, 07:27:35 AM
    Emotional reactions very well may be relevant and important.  That is often the way a sensus catholicus manifests itself.

    Sometimes, but sometimes (more often than not IMO) these emotional reactions are wrong and irrational.  That is why a rational discussion is called for ... to assess the validity of said emotional reaction.
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