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Author Topic: Holy Ghost or Spirit?  (Read 17769 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2018, 11:11:49 AM »
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  • The terms "Holy Spirit" and Holy Ghost mean the same thing so either is entirely fine to use. If it weren't for the NO replacing the traditionally used "Holy Ghost" with "Holy Spirit" for no other reason than "change for the sake of change", "Holy Ghost" would most likely still be used most of the time, just as it was throughout Church history prior to V2.  

    You're completely wrong.  "Holy Spirit" started to make its way into English Catholic texts and even prayer books well before Vatican II.  In fact the term DOES APPEAR in even the Douay-Rheims Bible 7-8 times.  NO did not replace Holy Ghost with Holy Spirit for any theological reasons, but simply because they had this tendency to eschew what they considered "archaic" language.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #61 on: June 30, 2018, 11:35:45 AM »
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  • I'm not sure that no one is saying that.  Jayne said it was offensive and scandalous to Traditional Catholics (and no one has questioned that statement other than myself).  Those are pretty strong words to use when the Church Herself sees nothing scandalous or offensive when the term is used to baptize.  As long the Church doesn't have a problem with it, no Traditional Catholic should have a problem with it.  And with that, I will leave this "debate".
    Even if, strictly speaking, the Church "does not have a problem" with the term, there are trads who are going to perceive it as supporting the changes of Vatican II.  That is what I meant by it being offensive and scandalous. 

    In my opinion, out of consideration for these people, it is more charitable to avoid using the term when praying with others.  It is neither intrinsically bad nor something that invalidates a baptism, but it is not appropriate to do things that upset and distract people for no good reason.  Even Ladislaus, who is apparently convinced that "Holy Spirit" is, in itself, the better term, does not use it when praying with others out of such considerations.

    Praying by oneself, there is more leeway.  Even then it is probably better to use "Holy Ghost" just to get into the habit of it so one will not accidentally say "Holy Spirit" around people who will be bothered by it.  But one is not committing a sin if one says Holy Spirit.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #62 on: June 30, 2018, 11:41:37 AM »
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  • You're completely wrong.  "Holy Spirit" started to make its way into English Catholic texts and even prayer books well before Vatican II.  In fact the term DOES APPEAR in even the Douay-Rheims Bible 7-8 times.  NO did not replace Holy Ghost with Holy Spirit for any theological reasons, but simply because they had this tendency to eschew what they considered "archaic" language.
    The fact of this matter is that prior to the NO, 99% of the time it was Holy Ghost, after the NO, 99% of the time it is Holy Spirit. Does it matter? - no. The NO most certainly replaced it, the fact that they replaced it was so obvious that we used it as an identifier of potential NOers - most of the time it proved to be accurate, hence the reason why this issue is an issue since V2 but not pre-V2. Accept it. 

    Baltimore Catechism: 
    Q. 1064. How do we make the sign of the cross?
    A. We make the sign of the cross by putting the right hand to the forehead, then on the breast, and then to the left and right shoulders, saying, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen."

    NO Catechism:
    2157 The Christian begins his day, his prayers, and his activities with the Sign of the Cross: "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #63 on: June 30, 2018, 11:42:23 AM »
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  •  NO did not replace Holy Ghost with Holy Spirit for any theological reasons, but simply because they had this tendency to eschew what they considered "archaic" language.
    I really disapprove of the tendency of the NO to remove supposedly archaic and/or difficult language and the general rationale that resulted in a "dumbed down" liturgy.  While not as serious as the theological problems with the NO, I see it as problematic too.  So, for me, to say the change to "Holy Spirit" was part of that tendency is argument in favour of using "Holy Ghost". 

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #64 on: June 30, 2018, 12:07:04 PM »
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  • I have little interest in linguistics.

    Isn't it reasonable to think the the word Ghost has been used is because in English translations we've traditionally borrowed from the German Geist rather from the Latin Spiritus, and that's it.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline TheJovialInquisitor

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #65 on: June 30, 2018, 12:27:32 PM »
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  • It doesn't matter, really. I think either can be used.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #66 on: June 30, 2018, 12:32:05 PM »
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  • You're completely wrong.  "Holy Spirit" started to make its way into English Catholic texts and even prayer books well before Vatican II.  In fact the term DOES APPEAR in even the Douay-Rheims Bible 7-8 times.  NO did not replace Holy Ghost with Holy Spirit for any theological reasons, but simply because they had this tendency to eschew what they considered "archaic" language.
    The teaching that Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus etc.  can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, has been a teaching of the Church for as long as the Douay-Reims has been around, what does that mean? Communion in the hand was around 1500 years ago. So what if the "holy spirit" is in the "Douay-Rheims 7-8 times"? (which you have not proved). I posted the link to the D-R and told you to do a search for yourself, as I did. If you did that you will see that it comes up 9 times and all the times it is never capitalized and is talking about the spirit. I just looked at it quickly since, even if it comes out once, it does mean lay people were using the name.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #67 on: June 30, 2018, 12:45:07 PM »
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  • And in more recent times the term "ghost" has taken on too many connotations that I personally dislike, and that, taken together with my background in Latin, has me preferring the term "Holy Spirit".  But it's not that big of a deal either way.  When I pray with groups who use Holy Ghost, I do likewise.
    One of my languages is Spanish, and Spanish, being a Romance language, uses the name of Espirito Santo, and "taken together", it makes little difference to me, my "preferences" have nothing to do with my using the term Holy Ghost when I speak English. It has nothing to do with what is used by  Italians, French, Romans, Hungarians etc., it has to do with what English speakers always used, that is all.

    By the way, spirits have just as many "connotations" today as ghosts, I think it has more as you can see below.

    We might as well start using the terms gαy, CE,  fellowship,  sacrament of penance, be slain by the spirit, have the spirit of VatII, name our daughters Madison, Ashley and Devin …...


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #68 on: June 30, 2018, 05:56:11 PM »
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  • .
    When a group of Catholics get together to pray the Rosary, there is a special collegiality and unity of mind that happens, because everyone in the room is thinking about the same things (Mysteries of the Rosary) and pronouncing the same words (prayers of the Rosary). This unity of mind and heart is most profound when the group prays as a school of thought with the same pace, the same expression, and the same tone. It's a great aid to contemplative prayer to be part of this experience.
    .
    It should come as no surprise, then, that there can sometimes be discord and distraction, which only serves the purposes of the devil. St. Louis Marie Grignon de Montfort used to say that the community reciting the Rosary is not free from the attacks of the Evil one.
    .
    Distractions can include someone outside using a chain saw to trim trees, or a weed whacker, lawn mower, leaf blower; a barking dog; a police or emergency vehicle siren; a horn honking, especially a car alarm; a baby having a tantrum or perhaps physical discomfort; hyperactive child making noises with toys; someone's cell phone ringing; someone having loud conversation in another room, etc.
    .
    When distractions are outside the conscious acts of those together for the Rosary, they're one kind of distraction, a kind that can perhaps be controlled or at least coped with. But when the distraction is endemic to the persons doing the praying, it's a higher order of a problem.
    .
    Some people use a different tempo in their prayer, such that they're always the first one finished with EACH Hail Mary, while others have one, two or more words left to go. I hear this a lot when English and Spanish are prayed at the same time: Spanish "Dios te salve Maria, llenas eres tu de gracia, el Senor es contigo...," takes about twice the time to say as the English, "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee." So the Spanish-praying people have to speed up and jumble their words if they don't want to fall behind. This causes anxiety and annoyance for them and for everyone who hears them. Not good.
    .
    But even when everyone is using English, some individuals habitually emphasize one word, such as "Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with THEE...," or, "HAIL, Mary full of grace..." The fact of the emphasis is not in itself distracting as much as the consistent repetition of the same emphasis over and over again is. Some of us find ourselves unable to focus on the Mystery at hand, and instead think about how out-of-place the repeated emphasis sounds.
    .
    Fortunately, the term Holy Ghost only occurs a few times in the Rosary: once in the Creed, and then once in each Glory Be. Nonetheless, anyone praying the Rosary with traditional Catholics will find himself the odd man out when he says, "Holy Spirit" when every one else is saying "Holy Ghost." I have known just a few who do this consistently, and they are all Novus Ordo types. It's as though they are on a mission to convert others to the "The Current form of the Catholic Church." I use "quotation marks" there because those are the words they have used to answer my questions about the things they do. They attend the "Ordinary Form" you see. They have the approval of the local Bishop ("Legitimately established," cf. S.C. 22.2).
    .
    As for me and my house, I use "Holy Ghost" to practice the habit and to be in accord with other traditional Catholics, so that when I get together with them for the Rosary or other prayers, I don't have to struggle with changing my habit or with causing distractions for others when I forget to change my habit for that occasion.
    .
    Another way of looking at it is, We Who Speak English might have been given a special grace in this phrase, the Name of the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. For we have something here that other languages do not have. The personhood of the Holy Ghost is a very important principle, and it is something that we ought to keep in mind. "My priest told me that there are many holy spirits but only one Holy Ghost."
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #69 on: June 30, 2018, 06:27:56 PM »
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  • "My priest told me that there are many holy spirits but only one Holy Ghost."
    I said the same exact thing earlier, and Matthew after that. My priest was ordained in 1953 and started his education to the priesthood in a pre-seminary in 8th grade.


    All of which raises the question to those who insist on using the name of Holy Spirit: Who taught you to use the name Holy Spirit?

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #70 on: June 30, 2018, 07:10:36 PM »
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  • The sort of Protestants who use the King James Version bible (and some even make it a point of belief that this is the only version allowed) also normally say "Holy Ghost".  

    On the other hand, there is no question that that the change from "Holy Ghost" to "Holy Spirit"" is associated with the "reforms" of Vatican II.

    I have a solution;  we can pray in Latin only. :)
    .
    An Anglican told me they generally use Holy Ghost because they stick to the traditional Anglican translations used in their Anglican liturgy. And that's what came down to them, from the Catholic England prior to the Protestant Deformation. 
    .
    Regarding prayers in Latin, I think that's a good idea, since Latin is the common bond that unites the Latin Church. You can travel the world and find other Catholics who can't speak your language (whatever that is) but they can pray with you in Latin. 
    .
    The Mass used to be that way, you see, way back when.
    .
    I have found only one problem (so far) in this plan. That problem came up when just ONE PRIEST had the frame of mind that Latin is for the priests to use, and Latin is not for the faithful to learn or to use. That's a PROBLEM. For all it takes is ONE PRIEST to harbor this objective error (it is indubitably an error!) and fallout happens. Error always has consequences. 
    .
    In this case, what happened was, the priest would race ahead with his accustomed fast pace in Latin, oblivious to whether anyone could keep up with him. It became especially cuмbersome when he would lead the Leonine Prayers after Low Mass, which had been decided by another priest that they would be done in Latin.  
    .
    Apparently this gave the willful priest an idea. After Low Mass, he would "step on" the words of the congregation in the  3 Ave Marias, giving the impression to all that he was annoyed at how slowly they were answering. At the Salve Regina, he would race ahead of the congregation such that by the end of the prayer they were a couple of seconds behind him, fairly stumbling over each other with different tempos, when he would chime in with his "Ora pro nobis, sancti Dei genitrix...," after which only a few, like the altar boys next to him, would respond with, "ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi," and in so responding would be forced to "step on" the words of others in the congregation who were still lagging behind. The priest would blast through the priest's prayer for the Church in about 14.5 seconds (you could only say one "Hail Mary" to yourself in English while he was doing it). And then came the worst part. He launched into "Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium..." all in one breath, practically before anyone else managed to join in with "defende nos..." Needless to say, the congregation would be in total chaos and most of them would drop out altogether, but those who would continue to the end would have about 5 more seconds of Latin left to go when the priest would be starting the next part, again "stepping on" the words of the faithful.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #71 on: June 30, 2018, 07:23:52 PM »
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  • I said the same exact thing earlier, and Matthew after that. My priest was ordained in 1953 and started his education to the priesthood in a pre-seminary in 8th grade.


    All of which raises the question to those who insist on using the name of Holy Spirit: Who taught you to use the name Holy Spirit?
    .
    The words I quoted are linked to your post, Last Tradhican. When I had read your post the first time, those words stuck in my mind such that when I wrote the post above, I had to go back looking for your post so I could directly quote them.
    .
    Perhaps you might remember the name of your priest? We should have a running list of their names IMHO.
    .
    It would be enlightening to see a list of priest who taught the faithful to use Holy Ghost vs. the other one.
    .
    I have a prediction:
    .
    ALL of the priests who have consistently taught the faithful to use Holy Ghost are also priests who held fast to the TLM against all odds.
    .
    ALL of the priests who have taught it doesn't matter if you say "Holy Spirit" are priests who also said the New Mass, or at least have made any of a number of excuses for why the Newmass is legitimate, praiseworthy or excusable (especially if said devoutly). For example, if Ladislaus had been ordained he would have been one of the latter, not the former.
    .
    Among SSPX priests today, which ones say "Holy Spirit" in English and which always say "Holy Ghost" in English?
    .
    BTW --- I'm not a priest (I'm sure that's no surprise to anyone) but I have utterly no doubts about what I'm saying here because I have paid attention to learned priests who are well-informed on this topic. So it's not a *WAG* on my part. 

    *(WAG has a formal definition BTW)*
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #72 on: June 30, 2018, 07:48:45 PM »
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  • You really need to stop conflating tradition with Tradition.  Vernacular languages change and those kinds of traditions are in fact subject to change.  The English language used today is a COMBINATION of English and French ... as explained by Matthew earlier.  There is no "pure" English language.  If there's any language out there today that's a mutt, it's English.  Regardless of the histories and the etymologies, it is what it is today.  And in more recent times the term "ghost" has taken on too many connotations that I personally dislike, and that, taken together with my background in Latin, has me preferring the term "Holy Spirit".  But it's not that big of a deal either way.  When I pray with groups who use Holy Ghost, I do likewise.
    .
    Nonsense. There is no question that in the English language, Holy Ghost has been the standard-bearer for the Holy Name of the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity since long before the 15th century. If that isn't capital T Tradition, then there isn't any. But it's also traditional. They don't have to be different things. Any connotations taken on for "ghost" don't hold a candle to the in-your-face Revolution that attacks everything holy in the Church. If you want to be a switch-hitter in your prayer life like so many other things you do, then go ahead, be agnostic or ambivalent or lukewarm (cf. St. John iii.16). But don't expect to attract any followers. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #73 on: June 30, 2018, 08:33:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    You really need to stop conflating tradition with Tradition.  Vernacular languages change and those kinds of traditions are in fact subject to change
    "All change except away from evil, is the most dangerous of all things" (Plato)

    Anyone that does not respect what came before him, will learn the hard way why it was done the way it was done.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #74 on: June 30, 2018, 08:42:42 PM »
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  • The words I quoted are linked to your post, Last Tradhican. When I had read your post the first time, those words stuck in my mind such that when I wrote the post above, I had to go back looking for your post so I could directly quote them.

    Perhaps you might remember the name of your priest? We should have a running list of their names IMHO.


    Fr. Carl Pulvermacher, OFM Capuchin


    "There are many holy spirits but only one Holy Ghost." (Fr. Carl Pulvermacher, OFM Capuchin)

    Internal rest grant onto him O Lord and let perpetual light shine upon him, may his soul and all the souls of the faithful departed, rest in peace.