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Author Topic: Holy Ghost or Spirit?  (Read 17770 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2018, 07:04:42 AM »
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  • Agree.  The use of the term 'Holy Ghost' is founded upon the Duoay-Rheims translation of Scripture (1582-1610) and the Roman Breviary, which were both translated/revised by order of the council of Trent, and Pope St Pius V, in response to the Protestant heresies.

    So if you reject "Ghost" in favor of "spirit" (in english) you are not a traditionalist catholic.  "Ghost" goes back 500 years, at least.  
    I still say Holy Spirit out of habit (mostly when reciting the Rosary) although I am not averse to saying Holy Ghost (and sometimes I do).    

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #46 on: June 30, 2018, 07:06:33 AM »
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  • Excellent,  it makes sense, who can argue with that?
    But the point is that the words for ghost and spirit can both be used because they mean the same thing.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #47 on: June 30, 2018, 07:23:27 AM »
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  • But the point is that the words for ghost and spirit can both be used because they mean the same thing.
    Really? That's his conclusion? Sounds like the story of the scientist that trained a frog to jump on command and recorded the distance of the jump, 4 feet, and he recorded the result, frog with four legs jumped 4 feet.  Then he cut off one leg and the frog jumped 3 feet, and he recorded the result again , frog with three legs jumped 3 feet and so forth till he cut off all the legs. Then with all the legs cut off, the frog would not jump no matter how much he yelled at it to jump. He finalized his test and recorded the conclusion: Frogs hear through the right front leg.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #48 on: June 30, 2018, 07:27:31 AM »
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  • I still say Holy Spirit out of habit (mostly when reciting the Rosary) although I am not averse to saying Holy Ghost (and sometimes I do).    
    That is what it is a habit learned from your youth, just like the Novus Ordo is a habit, not the tradition.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #49 on: June 30, 2018, 07:29:13 AM »
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  • Really? That's his conclusion? Sounds like the story of the scientist that trained a frog to jump on command and recorded the distance of the jump, 4 feet, and he recorded the result, frog with four legs jumped 4 feet.  Then he cut off one leg and the frog jumped 3 feet, and he recorded the result again , frog with three legs jumped 3 feet and so forth till he cut off all the legs. Then with all the legs cut off, the frog would not jump no matter how much he yelled at it to jump. He finalized his test and recorded the conclusion: Frogs hear through the right front leg.
    Why did you leave out the very next sentence when you quoted Matthew:

    Long story short, they are equivalent, they just come from 2 different language families (Latin/Romance languages, and German)

    Quite honestly, I think some here just want to argue.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #50 on: June 30, 2018, 07:38:21 AM »
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  • Why did you leave out the very next sentence when you quoted Matthew:

    Long story short, they are equivalent, they just come from 2 different language families (Latin/Romance languages, and German)

    Quite honestly, I think some here just want to argue.
    I didn't see that part, that is why I left it out, I didn't read further than what I posted. 

    To me this is not a point of debate, no one has a leg to stand on to defend the use of Holy Spirit in English, it is like debating if the ocean is salty. The English language comes from England and they always used Holy Ghost, long before they became Anglicans. If I sent you back to a Catholic Church in the USA in 1890, 1790, 1690, or England in 1290, and you would not have a leg to stand on to defend the use of Holy Spirit. That is what tradition is.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #51 on: June 30, 2018, 07:42:12 AM »
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  • I think this is an important point.  What traditional priest would be concerned with the validity of a baptism that used the form "in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit"?  Clearly the use of Holy Spirit still "intends to do what the Church does".
    I see no one responded to this post yet.

    If it is wrong to use the word "Spirit" rather than "Ghost", why does the Church accept baptisms using "Spirit" rather than "Ghost" in the form of the Sacrament of Baptism?  Think about that.  Clearly using "Spirit" doesn't change the validity of one's baptism!

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #52 on: June 30, 2018, 08:16:05 AM »
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  • I see no one responded to this post yet.

    If it is wrong to use the word "Spirit" rather than "Ghost", why does the Church accept baptisms using "Spirit" rather than "Ghost" in the form of the Sacrament of Baptism?  Think about that.  Clearly using "Spirit" doesn't change the validity of one's baptism!
    No one has said it is a sin to use Holy Spirit, that it would invalidate a baptism in English.

    I made the analogy of the Dialogue Mass, that mass was invented in the 1920's and it caught on big time after WWII in France, but it never got anywhere in English speaking countries. The Dialogue Mass is not a tradition in English speaking countries (nor is it technically a tradition in France, for 80 years does not make a tradition). It is a valid mass, but at the same time it is not tradition, it is a novelty.  It would not be a sin for a French priest to order his congregation in the USA to do the Dialogue Mass, however, it would go against the traditions of that country. If a priest changes traditions, he will change anything. The use of Holy Spirit in English is not a tradition, it is a novelty.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #53 on: June 30, 2018, 08:27:08 AM »
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  • No one has said it is a sin to use Holy Spirit, that it would invalidate a baptism in English.

    I made the analogy of the Dialogue Mass, that mass was invented in the 1920's and it caught on big time after WWII in France, but it never got anywhere in English speaking countries. The Dialogue Mass is not a tradition in English speaking countries (nor is it really a tradition in France for 70 years does not make a tradition). It is a valid mass, but at the same time it is not tradition, it is a novelty. The use of Holy Spirit in English is not a tradition, it is a novelty. It would not be a sin for a French priest to order his congregation in the USA to do the Dialogue Mass, however, it would go against the traditions of that country. If a priest changes traditions, he will change anything.
    I'm not sure that no one is saying that.  Jayne said it was offensive and scandalous to Traditional Catholics (and no one has questioned that statement other than myself).  Those are pretty strong words to use when the Church Herself sees nothing scandalous or offensive when the term is used to baptize.  As long the Church doesn't have a problem with it, no Traditional Catholic should have a problem with it.  And with that, I will leave this "debate".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #54 on: June 30, 2018, 09:59:20 AM »
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  • My real motive for asking this question was from my own private prayers to God..wondering which would please Him, Ghost or Spirit.

    What pleases Him is the disposition of your mind and heart.  Either term has been accepted by the Church as acceptable and valid.  Don't let yourself become scrupulous over this.  It's really not that big of a deal.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #55 on: June 30, 2018, 10:01:20 AM »
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  • So if you reject "Ghost" in favor of "spirit" (in english) you are not a traditionalist catholic.

    That's completely idiotic ... and borderline insane.  PS -- no one "rejects" the term Holy Ghost.  We're speaking about our personal preferences.  I love it how some Traditional Catholics (such as yourself) have elevated this term to being a litmus test of orthodoxy.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #56 on: June 30, 2018, 10:07:15 AM »
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  • I didn't see that part, that is why I left it out, I didn't read further than what I posted.

    To me this is not a point of debate, no one has a leg to stand on to defend the use of Holy Spirit in English, it is like debating if the ocean is salty. The English language comes from England and they always used Holy Ghost, long before they became Anglicans. If I sent you back to a Catholic Church in the USA in 1890, 1790, 1690, or England in 1290, and you would not have a leg to stand on to defend the use of Holy Spirit. That is what tradition is.

    You really need to stop conflating tradition with Tradition.  Vernacular languages change and those kinds of traditions are in fact subject to change.  The English language used today is a COMBINATION of English and French ... as explained by Matthew earlier.  There is no "pure" English language.  If there's any language out there today that's a mutt, it's English.  Regardless of the histories and the etymologies, it is what it is today.  And in more recent times the term "ghost" has taken on too many connotations that I personally dislike, and that, taken together with my background in Latin, has me preferring the term "Holy Spirit".  But it's not that big of a deal either way.  When I pray with groups who use Holy Ghost, I do likewise.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #57 on: June 30, 2018, 10:29:57 AM »
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  • The sort of Protestants who use the King James Version bible (and some even make it a point of belief that this is the only version allowed) also normally say "Holy Ghost".  I can understand Ladislaus not wanting to be mistaken for one of them.

    On the other hand, there is no question that that the change from "Holy Ghost" to "Holy Spirit"" is associated with the "reforms" of Vatican II.

    I have a solution;  we can pray in Latin only. :)
    Regardless that it really does not matter, as LT said, "Holy Ghost" is traditional, the fact is, saying "Holy Ghost" is so traditional that normally, we would only expect to hear "Holy Ghost" in the NO and other prot services when they are attempting to make their preaching appear to be more orthodox, forceful, or in some way more authoritative.  

    The terms "Holy Spirit" and Holy Ghost mean the same thing so either is entirely fine to use. If it weren't for the NO replacing the traditionally used "Holy Ghost" with "Holy Spirit" for no other reason than "change for the sake of change", "Holy Ghost" would most likely still be used most of the time, just as it was throughout Church history prior to V2.  

    This issue is right up there with NOers and prots who, as a rule, say, "the Virgin Mary" instead of  some variation of "Our Blessed Mother", or they always just say "Jesus" rather than some variation of "Our Lord". There is nothing wrong with this either, many saints occasionally said the same thing, and many priests have used the same terms on occasion.

    Back in the day when there was much confusion, we kinda used "Holy Spirit" as a means to identify possible NOers, but there is nothing wrong with it. As Jayne correctly said, we associate it with V2 because it was during that time that it became the norm.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #58 on: June 30, 2018, 10:51:37 AM »
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  • Holy Ghost is a proper noun and has one meaning and one meaning only...the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.  Traditionally we were very specific.

    Holy Spirit can be used to identify many different spirit beings.

    Use what you like but don't be surprised if non religious people don't know to whom you are referring.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #59 on: June 30, 2018, 11:08:53 AM »
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  • Holy Spirit can be used to identify many different spirit beings.

    Tell that to the Italians, Spanish, and French who all use a variation on the word "spirit" ... and like in English the term spirit has a similar broad range of meanings in their respective languages as well.  Ghost corresponds more to the Latin anima and the Church does not refer to the Holy Spirit as Anima Sancta.