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Author Topic: Holy Ghost or Spirit?  (Read 7947 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2018, 02:31:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 29, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
    That makes no sense since you are praying in English and in English all over the world it was always translated as Holy Ghost.  Nobody said in the name of The Father and of The Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    What do you mean "always"?  It was not "always" translated as Holy Ghost.  Not even in the Douay Rheims Bible.  Again, read that article which gives the history.  Even in the D-R Bible, it's only that MOST of the time Holy Ghost is used.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #16 on: June 29, 2018, 02:41:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2018, 02:31:50 PM
    What do you mean "always"?  It was not "always" translated as Holy Ghost.  Not even in the Douay Rheims Bible.  Again, read that article which gives the history.  Even in the D-R Bible, it's only that MOST of the time Holy Ghost is used.
    Nobody said in the name of The Father and of The Son and of the Holy Spirit. Priests did not say I baptize you in the name of The Father and of The Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    Spain is called Espana in Spain, but it is called Spain in English. It is English. gαy today means ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ. Saying Holy Spirit tells me the person went through the Novus Ordo.  Using Holy Spirit is akin to insisting on still using gαy to mean happy. To me it is a sign of Novus Ordo brainwashing.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #17 on: June 29, 2018, 03:13:01 PM »
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    • It's a great article, with both theological and linguistic reasons to use 'ghost'.  The english word 'spirit' is just too imprecise.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #18 on: June 29, 2018, 03:50:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2018, 02:31:50 PM
    Even in the D-R Bible, it's only that MOST of the time Holy Ghost is used.
    Here's the link to the D-R bible, search the PDF for Holy Spirit and see how it is used for yourself.  https://www.catholicspiritualdirection.org/douayrheimsbible.pdf

    I have a much older cousin that had his education in the 40's and 50's in South America.  I would mention baptism of desire to him and he just say there is no way.  I kept coming back to him with more and he would say there is no way, so I kept researching. Finally I thoroughly researched and learned and became like him.  
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #19 on: June 29, 2018, 04:16:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 29, 2018, 01:20:58 PM
    The sort of Protestants who use the King James Version bible (and some even make it a point of belief that this is the only version allowed) also normally say "Holy Ghost".  I can understand Ladislaus not wanting to be mistaken for one of them.

    On the other hand, there is no question that that the change from "Holy Ghost" to "Holy Spirit"" is associated with the "reforms" of Vatican II.

    I have a solution;  we can pray in Latin only. :)

    I usually do pray in Latin (I read it fluently after studying it for about 12 years formally in school).  That's why I said, "When I pray in English ..."

    That "association" is only there in the minds of Traditional Catholics.  Nobody outside of Traditional Catholics would think you're a modernist if you used Holy Spirit instead.  I knew a guy who had had his kids baptized Novus Ordo and was wondering about validity because the priest used Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost  :facepalm:.  We've got bigger battles to fight.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #20 on: June 29, 2018, 04:21:42 PM »
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    • Holy is from "heileger" meaning "holy" in German.
    Ghost is from "Geist" meaning "spirit" or "ghost" in German.

    Spirit is from the Latin "Spiritus" meaning "spirit" or "ghost".

    It's clunky to use one Germanic word and one Latin word. It should be "Sanctified Spirit" or something if you're going to go the Latin route.

    Long story short, they are equivalent, they just come from 2 different language families (Latin/Romance languages, and German)

    Because of its dual "mutt" heritage as a language, English has a minimum of 2 words for almost everything. The low-end, usually 1 syllable from Anglo-Saxon (German), and the high-end, fancy, educated, polysyllable word coming from Latin through the Romance languages, especially French (Thanks, Norman invasion!)

    sweat/perspiration
    car/automobile
    mouth/orifice (from os, oris - "mouth" in Latin)
    smart/intelligent
    man/hominid
    earth/terrace
    farming/agriculture
    food/sustinence
    dog/canine
    cat/feline
    horse/equine
    cup/vessel or chalice
    boss/supervisor
    hearing/audition
    seeing/vision
    green/verdant
    quick/expedited
    mess/disorder
    cut/excised
    boyish/puerile
    manly/virile
    tree place/arboretum
    house/domicile  (Haus is German, Domus is Latin)
    yearly/annual
    womanly/feminine
    motherhood/maternity  <---- there's a store called "Motherhood Maternity" hahaha!
    maidenhood/virginity
    ...and hundreds (thousands?) of others.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #21 on: June 29, 2018, 04:28:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on June 29, 2018, 04:21:42 PM
    Holy is from "heileger" meaning "holy" in German.
    Ghost is from "Geist" meaning "spirit" or "ghost" in German.

    Spirit is from the Latin "Spiritus" meaning "spirit" or "ghost".

    It's clunky to use one Germanic word and one Latin word. It should be "Sanctified Spirit" or something if you're going to go the Latin route.

    Long story short, they are equivalent, they just come from 2 different language families (Latin/Romance languages, and German)
    I can't remember the specifics, but I seem to recall being told this and not to worry about it if I use Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost (because I once thought I should switch).  
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #22 on: June 29, 2018, 04:33:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 29, 2018, 04:28:31 PM
    I can't remember the specifics, but I seem to recall being told this and not to worry about it if I use Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost (because I once thought I should switch).  
    There are many "holy spirits" but only one Holy Ghost. Spirit is more vague, if you think about it. Team spirit, spirit of vatican II, etc.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #23 on: June 29, 2018, 04:35:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
    That "association" is only there in the minds of Traditional Catholics.  Nobody outside of Traditional Catholics would think you're a modernist if you used Holy Spirit instead.  
    The association between "Holy Spirit" and modernists is not only in people's minds.  It exists as a mater of history.  The change was introduced by the same people who introduced all the other changes, from the same mindset that the Church needed to be changed.

    Non-trads tend to be ignorant of the implementation of Vatican II, so you are probably right that they won't see the use of "Holy Spirit" as siding with the modernists.  But it is quite reasonable for people who are aware of what happened to avoid the term.  

    Personally, I don't have a strong attachment to one term over the other.  When praying with others I follow their preference.  By myself, I tend to pray in Latin.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #24 on: June 29, 2018, 04:44:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 29, 2018, 03:13:01 PM
    It's a great article, with both theological and linguistic reasons to use 'ghost'.  The english word 'spirit' is just too imprecise.

    Actually, the argument is stronger in the other direction.  "Ghost" connotes more of a "soul", a spiritual essence ... whereas God has no essence but merely existence.  So the term spirit better captures the notion of an existence without essence.  In fact, the Latin term anima would be closer to the notion of "Ghost" ... and yet the Church does not use the phrase anima sancta (which would correspond most closely to "Holy Ghost").

    ALL the Romance languages (languages derived from Latin -- Italian, Spanish, French, etc.) use their variant on the word "spirit", and the same "imprecision" would apply to them, as their word for spirit has the same broad range of meaning in their respective languages.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #25 on: June 29, 2018, 04:47:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 29, 2018, 02:41:22 PM
    Nobody said in the name of The Father and of The Son and of the Holy Spirit. Priests did not say I baptize you in the name of The Father and of The Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    That's because they used Latin.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #26 on: June 29, 2018, 04:51:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 29, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
    I knew a guy who had had his kids baptized Novus Ordo and was wondering about validity because the priest used Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost  :facepalm:.  We've got bigger battles to fight.
    I think this is an important point.  What traditional priest would be concerned with the validity of a baptism that used the form "in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit"?  Clearly the use of Holy Spirit still "intends to do what the Church does".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #27 on: June 29, 2018, 04:53:06 PM »
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    • Here's one description, and it's the reason I prefer Spirit --

    Quote
    Practically all recent translations of the Bible, both Protestant and Catholic, have preferred Holy Spirit in most instances. The reason is probably because the meaning of the word ghost has gradually shifted over the last 300 years and now predominantly refers to the vision of the specter of a deceased person or a demonic apparition.

    In COMMON PARLANCE among English-speaking people, the term ghost has picked up the connotations described here.  Language changes over time.  So today I would never use the expression "many of the saints were gαy" ... because of the connotations that the word has picked up.  Simlarly, I don't like Ghost because of the connotations described above.

    Look, the change from Ghost to Spirit was NOT driven by Modernism in any way.  Even if it coincided in time with the ascendancy of Modernism, this does not mean that the change itself was Modernist.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #28 on: June 29, 2018, 04:57:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 29, 2018, 04:35:43 PM
    Non-trads tend to be ignorant of the implementation of Vatican II, so you are probably right that they won't see the use of "Holy Spirit" as siding with the modernists.  But it is quite reasonable for people who are aware of what happened to avoid the term.  

    Even though it coincided in time with the ascendancy of Modernism, this change was not motivated by Modernism.  I know a lot of Traditional Catholics who immediately label you a modernist if you say Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost.  That's a purely emotional rather than rational judgment.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Ghost or Spirit?
    « Reply #29 on: June 29, 2018, 05:02:18 PM »
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    • Now, on the other hand, I can see a rational motive for retaining "Thee" and "Thou".  "Thee" and "Thou" in modern English, because of their antiquity, convey a greater sense of respect and reverence than the colloquial "you" ... as does the expression "art" as in "Blessed ART thou" or "Who ART in heaven".  I recall having read that "thou" and "thee" were originally the more familiar form of the second-person pronouns ... but that has flipped around.  Many languages have a strong distinction between the familiar "you" and the formal "you".  In the past, for instance, you would never address a person of rank or an older person with the familiar form of "you".  But even in those languages, the formal "you" has fallen out of use ... because people have lost their sense of respect.  Even in my native Hungarian language, I still use the formal "you" to address older people or priests ... and they ALWAYS correct me and tell to use the colloquial form.  I never oblige them but continue on using the formal pronoun.  So Traditional Catholics would never address a bishop as "you" but as "Your Excellency" or even shift entirely to the third person (as I do) and say things like, "His Excellency once stated in a sermon ..."  Much less would anyone have dreamed of calling a Pope "Jorge".
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