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Author Topic: Help refuting Jєωιѕн claims  (Read 769 times)

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Offline Dylan

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Help refuting Jєωιѕн claims
« on: January 12, 2009, 09:46:34 AM »
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  • I need some help refuting some claims often made by тαℓмυdic Jєωs. They claim that because Jesus wasn't descended physically from St. Joseph, he wasn't the Son of David, and that women don't count genealogically, according to the Old Testament, thus making Him ineligible to be the Messiah.

    I looked this up on Google and I found a Jєωιѕн anti-missionary website, here, which says:

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    "Under Jєωιѕн law, tribal affiliation is through the birth father only (Numbers 34:14, Numbers 1:18-44, Leviticus 24:10 ). Since Jesus allegedly had no human father, he had no tribal affiliation. Therefore, Jesus was not from the tribe of Judah and is eliminated from messianic consideration."


    I also found some remarks online from an anti-missionary who stated:

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    "The genealogical inheritance, according to Judaism, is transmitted only through the bloodline. Since the Messiah is supposed to come from the Tribe of Judah, if Jesus was not related to Joseph through his bloodline, then he was not of the tribe of Judah. "

    "Women could never be used to define genealogy. Therefore, it doesn't matter if Mary was without a shadow of a doubt from the Tribe of Judah. It wouldn't help the case of Jesus. But for Jesus to be linked to the Tribe of Judah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's."

    "The genealogical trait is not inherited through the mother or through adoption. Therefore, if Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph's, I am sorry but the only way out to solve this paradox is by giving up the idea that Jesus was the Messiah. "


    When asked where in the Law it is stated that the genealogical inheritance is transmitted only through the bloodline he states:

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    "It's found throughout the Torah, as we read the Patriarchal way to conduct their lives, plus in both тαℓмυds: The Babylonian and Palestinian тαℓмυds. This has been matter of fact in Judaism for thousands of years. Only after the Second Century Rabbinical Judaism change the law about being Jєωιѕн as necessary that the mother must be Jєωιѕн. But according to Biblical Judaism, even Jєωιѕнness was established by the father. The reason for this change was based on the fact that the Tribal system was over."

    "For Jesus to be a descendant of David or Judah, he had to be a biological son of Joseph's, according to Judaism, that dictates that the genealogical inheritance is transmitted only through the father and biologically."

    "Genealogical inheritance cannot be transmitted through adoption. Everything else could be inherited by an adopted child, but the genealogy trait is the only thing out of the child's reach."


    When someone mentioned the case in Numbers 26 of the two daughters of a man who were going to lose their inheritance and appealed to Moses, he responded:

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    "Moses opened a exception to those sisters but only with regards to assets to be inherited. The genealogical trait was not included. Once they married out into another tribe they would remain genealogically from their original Tribe. Besides, genealogy is the only inheritance in Judaism that's not an inheritance. And this inheritance cannot be transmitted through the mother nor through adoption."


    When someone brought up the case of Caleb being adopted into Judah, he remarked:

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    "Caleb was never referred to as a Judahite of from the Tribe of Judah. He was considered "Jєωιѕн" for all purposes but never became a Judahite. He was indeed known as son of Jephunneh, but if you check Numbers 13:6, it says in there, "Caleb, son of Jephunneh, of the Tribe of Judah.

    Jephunneh was the one from the Tribe of Judah and not Caleb. Then, if you read Joshua 14:14, you will see that Caleb never lost his real identity with the Kenizzites, from Kenaz, a famous ancestor of Edom. (Jos. 14:14; I Chron. 1:51-53) Caleb was adopted and never lost his genealogical identity with Kenaz. That's why he was identified as a Kenizzite. The Caleb from the Tribe of Judah by descent was the one son of Hezron. (I Chron. 2:18) But the Caleb, one of the twelve scouts was the Kenizzite son of Jephunneh of the Tribe of Judah.

    Caleb never became one of Judah. He was always called as the Kenizzite and not a Judahite.

    In summary, Caleb, among many other thousands of non-Israelites who took advantage of the Exodus must have undergone some kind of conversion and became "Jєωιѕн". Then, he was adopted by Jephunneh, a man from the Tribe of Judah. But Caleb never lost his real identity of a Kenizzite from the peoples of Edom. Therefore, if Jesus was adopted by Joseph, he could even become a King, but never a Judahite. He would always be known as the son of whoever fecundated his mother Mary."


    Also, I found this site which tries to claim that Isaiah 53 is not referring to Jesus: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/isaih.html

    Could someone refute these claims, too?

    Particularly these:

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    53:3 "Despised and rejected of men."

    While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the Christian Bible account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11).

    Even as he was supposedly taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).


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    53:4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore."

    In Matt. 8:17, this is incorrectly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus' healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

    53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted."

    See Jer. 30:17 - of God's servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, "It is Zion; no one cares for her."


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    53:5 "But he was wounded FROM (NOTE: not FOR ) our transgressions, he was crushed FROM (AGAIN: not FOR) our iniquities."

    Notice above how the Christians mistranslate and write "FOR our transgressions " rather than " FROM our transgressions " .

    Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant's sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout the Jєωιѕн Bible - see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Davidic Messiah according to the Jєωs "shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).


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    53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth."

    Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

    Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.


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    53:8 "From dominion and judgement he was taken away."

    Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since - by Jesus'own testimony - he never had any rights to rulership or judgement, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.


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    53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living" and 53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men."

    See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israel is described as "cut off" and God promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

    The Jєωιѕн Bible repeatedly says that if a descendant of David is righteous, he will not be "cut off " (karet). For example, see 1Kings 2:4, 8:25, 9:4-5; Jeremiah 33:17; 2Chronicles 6:16, 7:18. But if a descendant of David or priests are unrighteous, they will be cut off (karet). For example, see Jeremiah 33:18; Joel 1:9.

    Therefore, if this verse is speaking of Jesus being "cur off", then that must mean he was unrighteous and was cut off from his (supposed) royal heritage.


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    53:8 "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to THEM ."

    Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual.

    The Hebrew word "lamoh", when used in the Jєωιѕн Bible , always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 - "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them."


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    53:9 "And with the rich in his DEATHS ."

    Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14). "DEATHS" (Plural)


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    53:9 "He had done no violence."

    See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the Christian Bible account of Jesus . Actualy this denotes that the servant is suffering at the hands of the Gentile nations without provocation .


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    53:10 "He shall see his seed."

    The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in the Jєωιѕн Bible . See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).


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    53:10 "He will prolong his days."

    Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God himself ?


    These claims have been giving me some trouble and I hope some people here can refute them.

    Thanks.


    Offline Stephanos II

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    Help refuting Jєωιѕн claims
    « Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 03:11:25 PM »
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  • The Apostolic and Sub-Apostolic Fathers (who lived during the first two hundred years of the Church) refuted all of that nonsense by the Jєωs

    See this link:

    http://www.bible.ca/history/fathers/ANF-01/welcome.htm



    Search engine

    http://www.bible.ca/cgi-bin/texis/webinator/search4/?pr=history

    _____________________________________________________________________

    St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians

    Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, which is at Philadelphia, in Asia, which has obtained mercy, and is established in the harmony of God, and rejoiceth unceasingly1 in the passion of our Lord, and is filled with all mercy through his resurrection; which I salute in the blood of Jesus Christ, who is our eternal and enduring joy, especially if [men] are in unity with the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons, who have been appointed according to the mind of Jesus Christ, whom He has established in security, after His own will, and by His Holy Spirit.



    Chapter VI.-Do Not Accept Judaism.

    But if any one preach the Jєωιѕн law unto you, listen not to him. For it is better to hearken to Christian doctrine from a man who has been circuмcised, than to Judaism from one uncircuмcised. But if either of such persons do not speak concerning Jesus Christ, they are in my judgment but as monuments and sepulchres of the dead, upon which are written only the names of men. Flee therefore the wicked devices and snares of the prince of this world, lest at any time being conquered44 by his artifices, ye grow weak in your love. But be ye all joined together with an undivided heart.

    Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better.

    The priests [of the Old Testament] indeed are good, but the High Priest [indicating Christ] is better; to whom the holy of holies has been committed, and who alone has been trusted with the secrets of God. He is the door of the Father, by which enter in Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the prophets, and the apostles, and the Church. All these have for their object the attaining to the unity of God. But the Gospel possesses something transcendent [above the former dispensation], viz., the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ [the eternal High Priest] , His passion and resurrection. For the beloved prophets announced Him, but the Gospel is the perfection of immortality. All these things are good together, if ye believe in love.


    St. Irenaeus

    Vol. III Against Heresies

    Chapter XV.-Refutation of the Ebionites [who were Jєωs who claimed that Christ was born of Mary and Joseph in the human fashion], Who Disparaged the Authority of St. Paul, from the Writings of St. Luke, Which Must Be Received as a Whole. Exposure of the Hypocrisy, Deceit, and Pride of the Gnostics. The Apostles and Their Disciples Knew and Preached One God, the Creator of the World.

    2. That John knew the one and the same Word of God, and that He was the only begotten, and that He became incarnate for our salvation, Jesus Christ our Lord, I have sufficiently proved from the word of John himself. And Matthew, too, recognising one and the same Jesus Christ, exhibiting his generation as a man from the Virgin,265 even as God did promise David that He would raise up from the fruit of his body an eternal King, having made the same promise to Abraham a long time previously, says: "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham"266 Then, that he might free our mind from suspicion regarding Joseph, he says: "But the birth of Christ267 was on this wise. When His mother was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Then, when Joseph had it in contemplation to put Mary away, since she proved with child, [Matthew tells us of] the angel of God standing by him, and saying: "Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus; for He shall save His people from their sins. Now this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet: Behold. a virgin shall conceive, and bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is, God with us; "clearly signifying that both the promise made to the fathers had been accomplished, that the Son of God was born of a virgin, and that He Himself was Christ the Saviour whom the prophets had foretold; not, as these men assert, that Jesus was He who was born of Mary, but that Christ was He who descended from above. Matthew might certainly have said, "Now the birth of Jesus was on this wise; "but the Holy Ghost, foreseeing the corrupters [of the truth], and guarding by anticipation against their deceit, says by Matthew, "But the birth of Christ was on this wise; "and that He is Emmanuel, lest perchance we might consider Him as a mere man: for "not by the will of the flesh nor by the will of man, but by the will of God was the Word made flesh; "268 and that we should not imagine that Jesus was one, and Christ another, but should know them to be one and the same.

    Chapter XIX.-Jesus Christ Was Not a Mere Man, Begotten from Joseph in the Ordinary Course of Nature, But Was Very God, Begotten of the Father Most High, and Very Man, Born' Of the Virgin.

    1. But again, those who assert that He was simply a mere man, begotten by Joseph, remaining in the bondage of the old disobedience, are in a state of death having been not as yet joined to the Word of God the Father, nor receiving liberty through the Son, as He does Himself declare: "If the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."357 But, being ignorant of Him who from the Virgin is Emmanuel, they are deprived of His gift, which is eternal life;358 and not receiving the incorruptible Word, they remain in mortal flesh, and are debtors to death, not obtaining the antidote of life. To whom the Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: "I said, Ye are all the sons of the Highest, and gods; but ye shall die like men."359 He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God,360 defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them. For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality. But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first, incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality, that might receive the adoption of sons?

    2. For this reason [it is, said], "Who shall declare His generation? "361 since "He is a man, and who shall recognise Him? "362 But he to whom the Father which is in heaven has revealed Him,363 knows Him, so that he understands that He who "was not born either by the will of the flesh, or by the will of man,"364 is the Son of man, this is Christ, the Son of the living God. For I have shown from the Scriptures,365 that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. But that He had, beyond all others, in Himself that pre-eminent birth which is from the Most High Father, and also experienced that pre-eminent generation which is from the Virgin,366 the divine Scriptures do in both respects testify of Him: also, that He was a man without comeliness, and liable to suffering;367 that He sat upon the foal of an ass;368 that He received for drink, vinegar and gall;369 that He was despised among the people, and humbled Himself even to death and that He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counsellor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God,370 coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;371 -all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.

    3. For as He became man in order to undergo temptation, so also was He the Word that He might be glorified; the Word remaining quiescent, that He might be capable of being tempted, dishonoured, crucified, and of suffering death, but the human nature being swallowed up in it (the divine), when it conquered, and endured [without yielding], and performed acts of kindness, and rose again, and was received up [into heaven]. He therefore, the Son of God, our Lord, being the Word of the Father, and the Son of man, since He had a generation as to His human nature from Mary-who was descended from mankind, and who was herself a human being-was made the Son of man.372 Wherefore also the Lord Himself gave us a sign, in the depth below, and in the height above, which man did not ask for, because he never expected that a virgin could conceive, or that it was possible that one remaining a virgin could bring forth a son, and that what was thus born should be" God with us, " and descend to those things which are of the earth beneath, seeking the sheep which had perished, which was indeed His own peculiar handiwork, and ascend to the height above, offering and commending to His Father that human nature (hominem) which had been found, making in His own person the first-fruits of the resurrection of man; that, as the Head rose from the dead, so also the remaining pan of the body-[namely, the body] of everyman who is found in life-when the time is fulfilled of that condemnation which existed by reason of disobedience, may arise, blended together and strengthened through means of joints and bands373 by the increase of God, each of the members having its own proper and fit position in the body. For there are many mansions in the Father's house,374 inasmuch as there are also many members in the body.

    ____________________________________________________________



    Bottom line is Christ resurrected Himself from the dead which proves He is the only True Messiah and the unbelieving Jєωs reject Him because they prefer this world and the Devil and mammon and the Antichrist (the Jєω naturalistic false messiah). It is their problem. Especially when Christ sends them to hell for eternity.