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Offline Daegus

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Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
« on: June 26, 2011, 06:28:35 AM »
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  • As far as I know, mortal sin constitutes 3 things, and they must be present for mortal sin to exist. These 3 things are:

    (1) Grave matter (Something that is considered to be a very serious sin)
    (2) Full Knowledge (Knowing that what you are committing is a grave sin)
    (3) Full Consent of the Will (Agreeing to do what you're doing in a right frame of mind, unbarred by any addiction or mental disorder)

    The way some N.O. Catholics (or CAF types) speak of mortal sin, it's almost as if it's virtually impossible for anyone to commit. It seems as though while grave matter is always present, the other 2 things go out the window very quickly. It's like atheists cannot be held culpable for their actions because they have not "known" God. Fornicators or "sex addicts" cannot be held culpable because they are not giving their consent to it. They're just addicted to sex! (sure..)

    If 2 of the 3 conditions are missing (and it's usually the latter 2), then would that not make the matter a grave sin? If so, what is a "grave sin" and how does it differ from a mortal sin? There's no way I'm convinced that an act like abortion (one that is willed by the mother) is only a venial sin, even if someone doesn't "know" that Christianity condemns it as murder. The same holds true for atheists. Just because they don't "know" that their really is a God, that doesn't mean they aren't aware of what denying His existence really means.

    Help me out here.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #1 on: June 26, 2011, 07:02:59 AM »
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  • Ask yourself about any other action you take.

    Do you know what you're doing?
    Do you do it willingly?

    Apply the same standards that you apply to other actions.

    The modernist NO religion is based on treating religion as a game of pretending, not as something real in the same way the other things we believe and do are real.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #2 on: June 26, 2011, 08:39:27 AM »
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  • There are objective elements and subjective elements to morality.  We can all observe the objective elements but only God knows the subjective elements.  It is difficult to say with certainty that a specific person has committed a mortal sin because it requires knowing what is in his heart.  However, we can say that something is a grave sin because that is based on observable actions.  Abortion is always a grave sin.  It is theoretically possible for it not to be a mortal sin.

    For practical purposes, always go to Confession for a grave sin.  For example, I received Communion before becoming Catholic (with the permission of a priest).  Years later, I learned this was wrong.  It is likely that it was not a mortal sin due to my ignorance, but I when I became aware it was a sin I confessed it anyhow.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #3 on: June 26, 2011, 08:55:36 AM »
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  •   How much consent is complete consent?
    Some people always say that their sins are not their fault. For example the employer told them to either commit a sin (like bribery, usury, fooling tax collectors, sexual sins etc.) or lose their jobs.
      Does it make those sins venial?!?!

    Offline Daegus

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #4 on: June 26, 2011, 01:33:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek
    There are objective elements and subjective elements to morality.  We can all observe the objective elements but only God knows the subjective elements.  It is difficult to say with certainty that a specific person has committed a mortal sin because it requires knowing what is in his heart.  However, we can say that something is a grave sin because that is based on observable actions.  Abortion is always a grave sin.  It is theoretically possible for it not to be a mortal sin.


    This is what's confusing to me. How do "mortal" sin and "grave" sin differ? What does grave sin do to a person, vs. mortal sin? We know that mortal sin deprives a soul of sanctifying grace and sends them straight to hell. What does grave sin do? The same thing?

    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #5 on: June 26, 2011, 01:45:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Daegus
    This is what's confusing to me. How do "mortal" sin and "grave" sin differ? What does grave sin do to a person, vs. mortal sin? We know that mortal sin deprives a soul of sanctifying grace and sends them straight to hell. What does grave sin do? The same thing?


    I've never heard of that distinction.  I always took it that there were sins that were objectively mortal but that the gravity could be lessened by subjective factors.

    Anyway, full consent of the will and knowledge that a sin is mortal are not difficult standards to meet, whatever the NOs who minimize sin and believe in universal salvation might say.

    I believe Romano Amerio covers this topic in his book Iota Unum.

    Offline Daegus

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #6 on: June 26, 2011, 01:57:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Daegus
    This is what's confusing to me. How do "mortal" sin and "grave" sin differ? What does grave sin do to a person, vs. mortal sin? We know that mortal sin deprives a soul of sanctifying grace and sends them straight to hell. What does grave sin do? The same thing?


    I've never heard of that distinction.  I always took it that there were sins that were objectively mortal but that the gravity could be lessened by subjective factors.

    Anyway, full consent of the will and knowledge that a sin is mortal are not difficult standards to meet, whatever the NOs who minimize sin and believe in universal salvation might say.

    I believe Romano Amerio covers this topic in his book Iota Unum.


    The Catholics over at CAF make it seem like there is a distinction.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra

    Offline Jaynek

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #7 on: June 26, 2011, 02:50:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Daegus
    Quote from: Jaynek
    There are objective elements and subjective elements to morality.  We can all observe the objective elements but only God knows the subjective elements.  It is difficult to say with certainty that a specific person has committed a mortal sin because it requires knowing what is in his heart.  However, we can say that something is a grave sin because that is based on observable actions.  Abortion is always a grave sin.  It is theoretically possible for it not to be a mortal sin.


    This is what's confusing to me. How do "mortal" sin and "grave" sin differ? What does grave sin do to a person, vs. mortal sin? We know that mortal sin deprives a soul of sanctifying grace and sends them straight to hell. What does grave sin do? The same thing?


    There two ways of considering sin, objectively or subjectively.  When considering it objectively, we are thinking about the action in itself.  To say that something is a grave sin is to say that, in itself, it is very wrong.  We don't ask the question "what does grave sin do to a person" because asking what it does to a person means we are considering the question subjectively.  It is like asking "Is celery your favourite fruit?"  Celery doesn't belong in the question because it it isn't part of the category you are discussing.

    Something that is a grave sin is potentially a mortal sin.  If it is a mortal sin it deprives your soul of sanctifying grace.  If it is not a mortal sin then it does not.  For practical purposes, treat your own grave sins as if they were mortal and get to Confession as soon as possible.  Other people's grave sins are rarely something you need to think about (although it is always a good idea to pray for people who are doing anything gravely sinful).  There is not likely to be a reason for you to need to know if somebody else's grave sin is also a mortal sin.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Jaynek

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #8 on: June 26, 2011, 02:56:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
     How much consent is complete consent?
    Some people always say that their sins are not their fault. For example the employer told them to either commit a sin (like bribery, usury, fooling tax collectors, sexual sins etc.) or lose their jobs.
      Does it make those sins venial?!?!


    It could reduce the culpability, but we don't know for sure.  Whenever there is any doubt, people should go to Confession.  Your question reminds me of this:

    Quote
        Q. 1. What are the 9 ways that one can participate in the sins of another person?

        A. 1. They are:

        1. By counsel (to give advice, one's opinion or instructions.)

        2. By command (to demand, to order, such as in the military.)

        3. By consent (to give permission, to approve, to agree to.)

        4. By provocation (to dare.)

        5. By praise or flattery (to cheer, to applaud, to commend.)

        6. By concealment (to hide the action, to cover-up.)

        7. By partaking (to take part, to participate.)

        8. By silence (by playing dumb, by remaining quiet.)

        9. By defense of the ill done (to justify, to argue in favour.)

        (Note: To participate in the sins of another person means that one is just as guilty of the sin as the one who committed them. For example, if you encourage someone to have an abortion, you are guilty of the sin of abortion.)



    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #9 on: June 26, 2011, 03:14:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jaynek
    Quote from: spouse of Jesus
     How much consent is complete consent?
    Some people always say that their sins are not their fault. For example the employer told them to either commit a sin (like bribery, usury, fooling tax collectors, sexual sins etc.) or lose their jobs.
      Does it make those sins venial?!?!


    It could reduce the culpability, but we don't know for sure.  Whenever there is any doubt, people should go to Confession.  Your question reminds me of this:

    Quote
        Q. 1. What are the 9 ways that one can participate in the sins of another person?

        A. 1. They are:

        1. By counsel (to give advice, one's opinion or instructions.)

        2. By command (to demand, to order, such as in the military.)

        3. By consent (to give permission, to approve, to agree to.)

        4. By provocation (to dare.)

        5. By praise or flattery (to cheer, to applaud, to commend.)

        6. By concealment (to hide the action, to cover-up.)

        7. By partaking (to take part, to participate.)

        8. By silence (by playing dumb, by remaining quiet.)

        9. By defense of the ill done (to justify, to argue in favour.)

        (Note: To participate in the sins of another person means that one is just as guilty of the sin as the one who committed them. For example, if you encourage someone to have an abortion, you are guilty of the sin of abortion.)




    Jayne, could you give a source for these quotes?

    Offline Daegus

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #10 on: June 26, 2011, 03:17:59 PM »
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  • I'm sure she got them off of Fish Eaters. Sounds familiar to me.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra


    Offline Jaynek

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 03:48:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Jaynek

    Quote
        Q. 1. What are the 9 ways that one can participate in the sins of another person?

        A. 1. They are:

        1. By counsel (to give advice, one's opinion or instructions.)

        2. By command (to demand, to order, such as in the military.)

        3. By consent (to give permission, to approve, to agree to.)

        4. By provocation (to dare.)

        5. By praise or flattery (to cheer, to applaud, to commend.)

        6. By concealment (to hide the action, to cover-up.)

        7. By partaking (to take part, to participate.)

        8. By silence (by playing dumb, by remaining quiet.)

        9. By defense of the ill done (to justify, to argue in favour.)

        (Note: To participate in the sins of another person means that one is just as guilty of the sin as the one who committed them. For example, if you encourage someone to have an abortion, you are guilty of the sin of abortion.)




    Jayne, could you give a source for these quotes?


    I've seen this list in my TLM missal so I knew it was good.  I found it online on a site that I am not familiar with, which is why I did not give a URL. I just took the top hit from my search.  I found it at: http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu102.htm but for all I know this is not a good site.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 03:50:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Daegus
    I'm sure she got them off of Fish Eaters. Sounds familiar to me.


    It's a traditional Catholic teaching that's available a lot of places.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #13 on: June 27, 2011, 12:42:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Daegus
    As far as I know, mortal sin constitutes 3 things, and they must be present for mortal sin to exist. These 3 things are:

    (1) Grave matter (Something that is considered to be a very serious sin)
    (2) Full Knowledge (Knowing that what you are committing is a grave sin)
    (3) Full Consent of the Will (Agreeing to do what you're doing in a right frame of mind, unbarred by any addiction or mental disorder)

    The way some N.O. Catholics (or CAF types) speak of mortal sin, it's almost as if it's virtually impossible for anyone to commit. It seems as though while grave matter is always present, the other 2 things go out the window very quickly. It's like atheists cannot be held culpable for their actions because they have not "known" God. Fornicators or "sex addicts" cannot be held culpable because they are not giving their consent to it. They're just addicted to sex! (sure..)

    If 2 of the 3 conditions are missing (and it's usually the latter 2), then would that not make the matter a grave sin? If so, what is a "grave sin" and how does it differ from a mortal sin? There's no way I'm convinced that an act like abortion (one that is willed by the mother) is only a venial sin, even if someone doesn't "know" that Christianity condemns it as murder. The same holds true for atheists. Just because they don't "know" that their really is a God, that doesn't mean they aren't aware of what denying His existence really means.

    Help me out here.


    All three conditions have to be present at the time of commission in order for the sin to be mortal.  Technically even two conditions could be present, however, if one is lacking, then the sin is not mortal.

    I always found that St. Pius X's Catechism has the best definition of mortal sin.

    From the Catechism of St. Pius X, "The Main Kinds of Sin," Question 9-10:
    Q: What injury does mortal sin do the soul?
    A: (1) Mortal sin deprives the soul of grace and of the friendship of God; (2) It makes it lose Heaven; (3) It deprives it of merits already acquired, and renders it incapable of acquiring new merits; (4) It makes it the slave of the devil; (5) It makes it deserve hell as well as the chastisements of this life.
    Q: Besides grave matter, what is required to constitute a mortal sin?
    A: To constitute a mortal sin, besides grave matter there is also required full consciousness of the gravity of the matter, along with the deliberate will to commit the sin.

    I understand full consciousness to be another way of saying sufficient reflection.
    Many times when I've done my examination of conscience I have to honestly ask myself it I did in fact ponder the sin over in my mind before I committed it.  

    In any case, I find it best to confess everything irregardless.
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Help me understand what "Mortal Sin" actually is
    « Reply #14 on: June 27, 2011, 12:54:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: rowsofvoices9
    I understand full consciousness to be another way of saying sufficient reflection.


    Sufficient reflection?  That makes it sound as though if you don't ponder the pros and cons then it's only venial.

    Full consciousness of the will means you know what you're doing and you're freely (voluntarily) doing it.  





     

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