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Offline Mercyandjustice

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Head Coverings
« on: October 14, 2018, 07:59:24 PM »
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  • Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head."

    I have a couple of questions about this verse.

    1) Do men have to uncover, and women cover, their heads every time they pray (like at home or in public or at work), or only during official Church rites (Mass, Divine Liturgy, Divine Office, processions, etc.)?

    2)Also, the text says men are to uncover their heads, so why so why do bishops and other clergy wear mitres/zucchettoes/ other types of hats during Mass or when conferring Holy orders?

    I've seen really old paintings and drawings that show clergymen wearing hats at Mass and even kings and rulers doing the same


    Thanks!
    Christians who preach their doctrine with bitterness and sarcasm don't preach out of love for God or souls, but only to assert dominance over others; out of pride.

    Offline rosenley

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #1 on: October 14, 2018, 08:35:56 PM »
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  • Ideally, I see nothing wrong with a woman, whenever she ought to pray, covering her head with a head covering. It was popular in Ireland before the Council, along with some other Eastern European Catholic countries.

    1 Corinthians 11 is speaking about the need for women to wear veils out of submission to their husband/father (whoever is their superior). Here is the passage before verse four:

    Quote
    [3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. [4] Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head.

    Also, 1 Corinthians 11:7-10:

    Quote
    [7] The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. [8] For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. [9] For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man. [10] Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.

    1 Corinthians 11 is stressing the importance of females veiling as a sign of submission to their head. St. Paul purposefully uses the term "head" while describing the male-female relationship because the "head" refers to both the real human head and the head of the created hierarchy. Covering the female head is the recognition of their place before men, as being constructed of man rather than being built in the image of God. Bishops, Priests, and Monks visibly submit to God with their dress (cassocks, habits, etc.) and do not cover their head in submission to other men (the opposite of why women are commanded to cover their head, and why men aren't commanded to cover their head). Clerics and lay brothers cover their head solely out of reverence and adoration for Our Lord (women can do this too, but it's more precise to say they veil out of submission).
    "The more perfectly God is known the more perfectly is He loved." - St. Thomas Aquinas


    Offline Markus

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #2 on: October 14, 2018, 08:38:42 PM »
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  • For sure, there's nothing wrong with a woman wearing head coverings, if they wish, outside of Mass. :)

    I think, to the degree it doesn't resemble Muslim women, it is attractive.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #3 on: October 15, 2018, 02:06:57 AM »
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  • For sure, there's nothing wrong with a woman wearing head coverings, if they wish, outside of Mass. :)

    I think, to the degree it doesn't resemble Muslim women, it is attractive.
    Markus, here is a little quiz for you. I have seen some extremely attractive Muslim women. See if you can pick the religion of these fourteen images of
    Women of various religions. I scored 10 out of 14. See how many you can get.
    http://www.judaism-islam.com/quiz-can-you-tell-her-religion-from-her-head-covering/

    Offline SusanneT

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #4 on: October 15, 2018, 03:58:51 PM »
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  • I think that this proves two things - that we are often ignorant of other cultures and that religious women of all faiths feel called to cover. 


    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #5 on: October 16, 2018, 12:22:17 PM »
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  • Ideally, I see nothing wrong with a woman, whenever she ought to pray, covering her head with a head covering. It was popular in Ireland before the Council, along with some other Eastern European Catholic countries.

    1 Corinthians 11 is speaking about the need for women to wear veils out of submission to their husband/father (whoever is their superior). Here is the passage before verse four:

    Also, 1 Corinthians 11:7-10:

    1 Corinthians 11 is stressing the importance of females veiling as a sign of submission to their head. St. Paul purposefully uses the term "head" while describing the male-female relationship because the "head" refers to both the real human head and the head of the created hierarchy. Covering the female head is the recognition of their place before men, as being constructed of man rather than being built in the image of God. Bishops, Priests, and Monks visibly submit to God with their dress (cassocks, habits, etc.) and do not cover their head in submission to other men (the opposite of why women are commanded to cover their head, and why men aren't commanded to cover their head). Clerics and lay brothers cover their head solely out of reverence and adoration for Our Lord (women can do this too, but it's more precise to say they veil out of submission).
    So should men always remove hats or hoods or other things on their heads when they pray? Or only in a church building? 
    Christians who preach their doctrine with bitterness and sarcasm don't preach out of love for God or souls, but only to assert dominance over others; out of pride.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #6 on: October 17, 2018, 12:19:17 AM »
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  • Women who wear veils report that they are more respected overall than when they did not wear them.

    Offline rosenley

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #7 on: October 17, 2018, 02:18:53 AM »
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  • So should men always remove hats or hoods or other things on their heads when they pray? Or only in a church building?
    I'd say it depends on the circumstances and if wearing the hat is required. For example, some men in the military may have to wear a hat (in my country, a beret) while in uniform. If they wish to attend Mass in uniform or need to go to confession before training and they have no time to change, it becomes a necessity and can't be circumvented.
    "The more perfectly God is known the more perfectly is He loved." - St. Thomas Aquinas


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #8 on: October 17, 2018, 10:00:17 AM »
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  • I'd say it depends on the circumstances and if wearing the hat is required. For example, some men in the military may have to wear a hat (in my country, a beret) while in uniform. If they wish to attend Mass in uniform or need to go to confession before training and they have no time to change, it becomes a necessity and can't be circumvented.
    I have known many military traditional Catholics. They always have taken their hats off when entering a church but replaced them as soon as leaving the church.  
    Obviously, though, the requirement to "Pray always" does not mean that women will always be veiled when they pray of that men will never have their heads covered.  If a military man was to say a quick prayer while in battle he may not have the time to take his hat off.  Or a woman who does not have a hat may wish to say a quick prayer, but not having a head covering should not keep her from doing so.  I think the idea is that if it is public prayer then the saying is to be applied.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline rosenley

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #9 on: October 17, 2018, 05:23:12 PM »
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  • I have known many military traditional Catholics. They always have taken their hats off when entering a church but replaced them as soon as leaving the church.  
    In some countries (such as mine), it violates the dress code if a soldier were to remove his beret. What I know is that in the US enlisted men can wear a "patrol cap" while in uniform, and not be in violation if they were to take it off. However, in my country, it's a requirement the Army doesn't overlook or excuse based on religion.  
    "The more perfectly God is known the more perfectly is He loved." - St. Thomas Aquinas

    Offline Markus

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #10 on: October 17, 2018, 10:46:23 PM »
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  • Markus, here is a little quiz for you. I have seen some extremely attractive Muslim women. See if you can pick the religion of these fourteen images of
    Women of various religions. I scored 10 out of 14. See how many you can get.
    http://www.judaism-islam.com/quiz-can-you-tell-her-religion-from-her-head-covering/
    Interesting. I scored 9 out of 14.
    You make a very good point. Perhaps the standard should be adjusted to say -- as long as they aren't wearing a Burka, which is excessive.
    You are right, many Muslim women are attractive with their head coverings.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #11 on: October 17, 2018, 10:51:13 PM »
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  • I'd say it depends on the circumstances and if wearing the hat is required. For example, some men in the military may have to wear a hat (in my country, a beret) while in uniform. If they wish to attend Mass in uniform or need to go to confession before training and they have no time to change, it becomes a necessity and can't be circumvented.
    I believe there is an exception for men in the military.
    Dad told the story about how when he was in the Coast Guard Academy a friend who was also Catholic invited him home for dinner. It was a Friday. His friend told his mother that they had a dispensation from the rules of fast and abstinence so they could eat meat on Friday. His friend's mother replied, "Not in my house."  

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #12 on: October 19, 2018, 10:29:54 AM »
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  • In some countries (such as mine), it violates the dress code if a soldier were to remove his beret. What I know is that in the US enlisted men can wear a "patrol cap" while in uniform, and not be in violation if they were to take it off. However, in my country, it's a requirement the Army doesn't overlook or excuse based on religion.  
    I guess that is what happens when there are no longer truly Catholic countries.  It makes sense.   :-X
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #13 on: October 19, 2018, 04:56:44 PM »
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  • 13/14.  But I live in NY and have regular exposure to people from literally all over the world.  I confused the Sihk for Hindu.  Not bad considering I'm of course Catholic.

    Offline LongHaired CountryBoy

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    Re: Head Coverings
    « Reply #14 on: March 10, 2019, 09:08:36 PM »
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  • I have known many military traditional Catholics. They always have taken their hats off when entering a church but replaced them as soon as leaving the church.  

    It's standard protocol for American military to remove their berets / caps from their heads as soon as they enter any building, and they put it back on their heads as they're exiting the building.

    I'm a veteran. I know.
    the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men.
    ~ 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15

    I knew in my faith that the Jews were accursed and condemned without end, except those who were converted. ~ Bl. Juliana of Norwich

     

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