Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4

Author Topic: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11  (Read 6206 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2330
  • Reputation: +880/-146
  • Gender: Male
Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
« on: October 26, 2023, 07:05:38 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • I thought some might find this interesting. I attach a screenshot of the Greek interlinear of the Septuagint verse for Daniel 12:11. Here's the Douay for that verse:


    Quote
    11 And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days,

    Et a tempore cuм ablatum fuerit juge sacrificium, et posita fuerit abominatio in desolationem, dies mille ducenti nonaginta.

    Douay-Rheims + Latin-Vulgate, Daniel Chapter 12 (drbo.org)

    Most of us are familiar with the English translation as the sacrifice being "taken away." The Latin in the Vulgate is interesting. I don't know Latin beyond some basic vocabulary and knowing some prayers etc., so it would be interesting to hear from someone who can comment on that.

    Anyway, the Greek Septuagint has a word for "taken "away" that is translated in the Apostolic Bible as παραλλάξϵως, "alteration change." So the translation of the verse reads: "And from the time of the alteration change of the perpetual sacrifice, and of the putting the abomination - a thousand two hundred ninety days." The sacrifice is not "taken away," but altered or changed.

    This is consistent with Daniel 7:25, speaking of the "Antichrist" figure:


    Quote
    25 And he shall speak words against the High One, and shall crush the saints of the most High: and he shall think himself able to change times and laws, and they shall be delivered into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time.

    Et sermones contra Excelsum loquetur, et sanctos Altissimi conteret : et putabit quod possit mutare tempora, et leges : et tradentur in manu ejus usque ad tempus, et tempora, et dimidium temporis.

    St. Jerome commented on this text from Daniel:


    Quote
    "... And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority.

    St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel (1958)  pp. 15-157 (tertullian.org)

    As I said, very interesting in light of the Novus Ordo changes in the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

    The link for the Apostolic Bible app is apostolicbibleapp.com

    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6476/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #1 on: October 26, 2023, 07:41:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: DecemRationis on October 26, 2023, 07:05:38 AM
    I thought some might find this interesting. I attach a screenshot of the Greek interlinear of the Septuagint verse for Daniel 12:11. Here's the Douay for that verse:


    Most of us are familiar with the English translation as the sacrifice being "taken away." The Latin in the Vulgate is interesting. I don't know Latin beyond some basic vocabulary and knowing some prayers etc., so it would be interesting to hear from someone who can comment on that.

    Anyway, the Greek Septuagint has a word for "taken "away" that is translated in the Apostolic Bible as παραλλάξϵως, "alteration change." So the translation of the verse reads: "And from the time of the alteration change of the perpetual sacrifice, and of the putting the abomination - a thousand two hundred ninety days." The sacrifice is not "taken away," but altered or changed.

    This is consistent with Daniel 7:25, speaking of the "Antichrist" figure:


    St. Jerome commented on this text from Daniel:


    As I said, very interesting in light of the Novus Ordo changes in the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

    The link for the Apostolic Bible app is apostolicbibleapp.com
    Except those changes were made decades ago, not 1,290 days ago.  
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46883
    • Reputation: +27744/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #2 on: October 26, 2023, 07:52:56 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Interesting.

    Here's the Hebrew word from Daniel 12:11.  It seems to mean a turning aside, so a departure, but also could means to be taken away.  So it sounds like either meaning is possible.

    http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/5493.html

    I like translating it something like to "veer", as in to "veer off" a path or direction.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46883
    • Reputation: +27744/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #3 on: October 26, 2023, 07:55:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 26, 2023, 07:41:26 AM
    Except those changes were made decades ago, not 1,290 days ago. 

    Timespans can be a bit tricky in prophecy.
    Logged

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #4 on: October 26, 2023, 08:03:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 26, 2023, 07:41:26 AM
    Except those changes were made decades ago, not 1,290 days ago. 

    You'd be making a grave mistake counting this number as literal. Just by way of obvious example: Daniel's 70 "weeks" (Daniel 9:24) is not about a year and a half.
    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #5 on: October 26, 2023, 08:06:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 26, 2023, 07:55:15 AM
    Timespans can be a bit tricky in prophecy.

    Right. They are divine markers of demarcation, not literal periods in most cases. Context, parallels in other Scriptures, etc. need to be looked at. 

    Pro 25:2  It is the glory of God to conceal the word, and the glory of kings to search out the speech.
    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #6 on: October 26, 2023, 08:14:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 26, 2023, 07:52:56 AM
    Interesting.

    Here's the Hebrew word from Daniel 12:11.  It seems to mean a turning aside, so a departure, but also could means to be taken away.  So it sounds like either meaning is possible.

    http://lexiconcordance.com/hebrew/5493.html

    I like translating it something like to "veer", as in to "veer off" a path or direction.

    Thanks for that. 
    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6476/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #7 on: October 26, 2023, 08:23:42 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: DecemRationis on October 26, 2023, 08:03:58 AM

    You'd be making a grave mistake counting this number as literal. Just by way of obvious example: Daniel's 70 "weeks" (Daniel 9:24) is not about a year and a half.

    Personally, I try to avoid interpreting Scripture outside of Church teaching which is what this thread is attempting to do. I think *that* is a grave mistake, and there seems to be an awful lot of that lately.
    Logged

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #8 on: October 26, 2023, 08:55:44 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 26, 2023, 08:23:42 AM
    Personally, I try to avoid interpreting Scripture outside of Church teaching which is what this thread is attempting to do. I think *that* is a grave mistake, and there seems to be an awful lot of that lately.

    You're chasing a bogeyman that apparently haunts you. What I did here was merely make an observation about the Greek Septuagint that indeed someone else found interesting. I "interpreted" nothing. To the extent I offered "interpretation," it was St. Jerome's.


    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6476/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #9 on: October 26, 2023, 09:01:26 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: DecemRationis on October 26, 2023, 08:55:44 AM
    You're chasing a bogeyman that apparently haunts you. What I did here was merely make an observation about the Greek Septuagint that indeed someone else found interesting. I "interpreted" nothing. To the extent I offered "interpretation," it was St. Jerome's.
    Is your post interesting?  Sure.  But, given your comment to me that to interpret the time literally was a "grave mistake", you most certainly have interpreted the Scriptures as you see fit.  Not to mention that you have a history of interpreting Scripture on this forum.  
    Logged

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #10 on: October 26, 2023, 09:14:35 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 26, 2023, 09:01:26 AM
    Is your post interesting?  Sure.  But, given your comment to me that to interpret the time literally was a "grave mistake", you most certainly have interpreted the Scriptures as you see fit.  Not to mention that you have a history of interpreting Scripture on this forum. 

    Ok. I pointed out that in the same book, Daniel's, 70 "weeks" is not literal weeks. So, yes, I would say that assuming the 1,290 was literal is a "grave mistake." 

    The "Church" has not interpreted the passage. In truth, the Church has not officially interpreted but a few passages of Scripture, and this is not one. 

    But . . . the bogeyman. 


    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6476/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #11 on: October 26, 2023, 09:41:12 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: DecemRationis on October 26, 2023, 09:14:35 AM
    Ok. I pointed out that in the same book, Daniel's, 70 "weeks" is not literal weeks. So, yes, I would say that assuming the 1,290 was literal is a "grave mistake."

    The "Church" has not interpreted the passage. In truth, the Church has not officially interpreted but a few passages of Scripture, and this is not one.

    But . . . the bogeyman.

    No bogeyman DR.  You have a penchant for interpreting Scripture as you see fit, and others have pointed that out in the past.  I also never said that this particular passage was officially interpreted by the Church.  My issue is that you have a history of posting about Scripture as if your interpretations are correct/should be heeded.  That was shown in this thread by your telling me that it's a grave mistake for me to take it literally.

    Anyway, I'm not going back and forth with you on this.   
    Logged

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1173
    • Reputation: +497/-96
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #12 on: October 26, 2023, 09:52:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 26, 2023, 07:41:26 AM
    Except those changes were made decades ago, not 1,290 days ago. 

    The Novus Ordo was invented decades ago. But the Novus Ordo and the TLM have existed in parallel since that time. The TLM has never been officially abrogated by the Church...YET.

    This idea of a parallel existence is found in the root of the word used in the Septuagint (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parallax). This is referenced in DR's sentence "Anyway, the Greek Septuagint has a word for "taken "away" that is translated in the Apostolic Bible as παραλλάξϵως."

    When that official abrogation of the TLM occurs, which will be soon, that act, by Antipope Bergoglio, will trigger the beginning of the 1290 days. That official act will be the Abomination of Desolation.
    Logged

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #13 on: October 26, 2023, 09:55:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 26, 2023, 09:41:12 AM
    No bogeyman DR.  You have a penchant for interpreting Scripture as you see fit, and others have pointed that out in the past.  I also never said that this particular passage was officially interpreted by the Church.  My issue is that you have a history of posting about Scripture as if your interpretations are correct/should be heeded.  That was shown in this thread by your telling me that it's a grave mistake for me to take it literally.

    Anyway, I'm not going back and forth with you on this. 

    Yes, Vermont, bogeyman. I've highlighted the key words in your response, "as if." You're reading that into any discussions I've made regarding Scripture, because you are indeed afraid of dealing with the scriptures on their own terms by looking closely at the language, comparing a verse with other relevant verses, drawing rational inferences, having reasonable discussions about the meaning of the divine revelation in the Bible . . . because you're afraid of being "Protestant." As the people of God, the Church, the Bible is our book and should be closely read and discussed. You have an irrational fear of that . . . the bogeyman.

    Of course I think any argument I make, or any interpretation I offer, is true or supportable as truth, or else I wouldn't make it. I welcome arguments against, which should be weighed, as my interpretation, on their merits, on the strengths of the arguments.

    I think that assuming the 1290 days of Daniel as literal is a grave mistake, and I pointed out an example why. I acknowledge that many do think it to be 1290 literal days, and we can discuss it. The Church has not interpreted it, and the discussion is not only permissible but I think commendable, as showing reverence for the Word of God and what He has revealed, which is of paramount importance to us, Catholics, God's people.
    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Greek Septuagint for Daniel 12:11
    « Reply #14 on: October 26, 2023, 10:03:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Angelus on October 26, 2023, 09:52:39 AM
    The Novus Ordo was invented decades ago. But the Novus Ordo and the TLM have existed in parallel since that time. The TLM has never been officially abrogated by the Church...YET.

    This idea of a parallel existence is found in the root of the word used in the Septuagint (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/parallax). This is referenced in DR's sentence "Anyway, the Greek Septuagint has a word for "taken "away" that is translated in the Apostolic Bible as παραλλάξϵως."

    When that official abrogation of the TLM occurs, which will be soon, that act, by Antipope Bergoglio, will trigger the beginning of the 1290 days. That official act will be the Abomination of Desolation.

    Angelus,

    An interesting argument. I'll come back to it when I have more time.

    For now,  I note that the Greek word is not translated as "taken away," but "alteration change." 
    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
    Pages: [1] 2 3 4
    « previous next »