Author Topic: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children (Read 9812 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2022, 03:17:50 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 22, 2022, 10:42:22 AM

before he died as the oldest confirmed that he was still breathing at the time

That's always been an interesting question. I am of the opinion that the soul doesn't leave the body immediately after breathing or even the heart stops, and modern science's criterion of brain death is absurd. I tend to lean toward rigor mortis beginning to set in as the sign that the soul, which animates the body, has departed. I believe that it's permitted to administer Last Rites up until that point.

SimpleMan · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2022, 03:30:36 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on May 22, 2022, 03:17:50 PM

That's always been an interesting question. I am of the opinion that the soul doesn't leave the body immediately after breathing or even the heart stops, and modern science's criterion of brain death is absurd. I tend to lean toward rigor mortis beginning to set in as the sign that the soul, which animates the body, has departed. I believe that it's permitted to administer Last Rites up until that point.

I question it even then. To what extent is the soul dependent upon the state of the body to maintain its presence there? (And not all cells die at once.)

It's an extreme point of view, but N.M. Gwynne (of grammar and Latin fame), in his Britons Catholic Library catalog, called into doubt the departure of the soul until putrefaction has begun, about three days after death.

Don't know to what extent embalming would hasten the soul's departure. My father died on a Thursday and I did not sign the embalming papers until Monday, without being too graphic, he was kept in the facilities that funeral homes provide during that interim period.

josefamenendez · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2022, 04:11:58 PM »

I think the Church allows one hour past the time of clinical death for performing extreme unction. ( Clinical death is determined by cessation of breathing and the lack of cardiac electrical impulses (ASYSTOLE) but clinical death is determined from external signs and monitoring. Actual death may take more time as internal heart( electrical) impulses may extend for a while- hence the hour.

josefamenendez · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2022, 04:22:35 PM »

This was taken from a Novus Ordo article , but the Latin is obviously traditional. Will try and google translate

Back in the day before many medical developments, moral theologians in their manuals wrote that in the case of apparent death, anointing could be administered conditionally. The form for the anointing is changed slightly to introduce the condition of life, that is, by adding the words, “Si vivis… if you are now living (then…)”. In this way, the integrity of the sacrament is preserved and, if it is possible that the person is alive, then hopefully she receives the effects.
Also, in the old manuals of theology, there was discussion of the point made before, about the way the soul separates from the body.
In Sabetti-Barrett I found:

Quote

“Quid sacerdoti agendum sit, si an aegrotum accedat, eumque modo mortuum, ut vulgo dicitur, inveniat?
Jam age ex sententia plurimorum medicorum doctissimorum probabile est homines in omnibus ferme casibus post instans mortis, ut vulgo dicitur, seu post ultimam respirationem intus aliquandiu vivere, brevius vel diutius, juxta naturam causae quae mortem induxit. In casibus mortis ex morbis lenti progressus probabile est vitam interne perdurare aliquot momenta, sex circiter, vel, juxta quosdam peritos, unam dimidiam horam: in casibus vero mortis repentinae vita interna perdurat longuis, forte non improbabiliter, usque ad putrefactionem. Ideo si sacerdos advenerit moraliter eodem tempore, quo mors sive ex morbo ordinario sive ex accidente aliquo repentino communiter censetur ingressa, potest et, ut nobis videtur, debet sacerdos praedicta duo sacramenta conditionate conferre. Et idem censemus tenendum si in casibus aegritudinis ante dimidiam horam, et in casibus accidentis repentini ante horam ab ingressu mortis apparentis sacerdos advenerit. Quod si tamen respirationem sed ante corruptionem advenerit potest sacramenta administrare: quod autem debeat, sapientioribus relinquo decernedum.”

Google translation:

Now, according to the opinion of many most learned physicians, it is probable that in almost all cases men after an instant of death, as is commonly said, live within some time after the last respiration, shorter or longer, according to the nature of the cause which caused death. In cases of death from slow development of diseases, it is likely that internal life lasts for several periods, about six, or, according to some experts, one-half hour; but in cases of sudden death, the internal life lasts long, perhaps not improbably, until putrefaction. Therefore, if a priest arrives morally at the same time as death, whether from an ordinary illness or from some sudden accident, is considered to have entered the community, he can and, as it seems to us, ought to confer the above two sacraments conditionally. And we think the same must be held if in cases of illness before half an hour, and in cases of a sudden accident before the hour of apparent death, a priest arrives. But if, however, he comes to respiration but before corruption, he can administer the sacraments;

2Vermont · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2022, 04:34:25 PM »

Quote from: SimpleMan on May 22, 2022, 03:30:36 PM

I question it even then. To what extent is the soul dependent upon the state of the body to maintain its presence there? (And not all cells die at once.)

It's an extreme point of view, but N.M. Gwynne (of grammar and Latin fame), in his Britons Catholic Library catalog, called into doubt the departure of the soul until putrefaction has begun, about three days after death.

Don't know to what extent embalming would hasten the soul's departure. My father died on a Thursday and I did not sign the embalming papers until Monday, without being too graphic, he was kept in the facilities that funeral homes provide during that interim period.

Are wakes traditionally 3 days long? Could this be why?

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children (Read 9812 times)

Ladislaus

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SimpleMan

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josefamenendez

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josefamenendez

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2Vermont

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