Author Topic: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children (Read 3942 times)

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2022, 04:49:25 PM »

Fascinating conversation!

I just always presumed that when both breathing and heart stopped, death was present (and if death was present, the separation of soul and body was instantaneous).

That that might not be the case is almost...bewildering to me.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but back in Old Testament times (and still today), were not Jєωs required to be buried within 24 hours (ie., implying the soul had already left the body within that time)?

moneil · « **Reply #16 on:** May 22, 2022, 05:35:34 PM »

I agree with Sean that this is a fascinating topic, and also I have always presumed (and still do) that the soul departs the body at the very moment of death (at the cessation of a detectable natural heart beat or brain activity). For what purpose would God have it linger? I was curious if the Church has authoritatively spoken (the emphasis being on “authoritatively” rather than “speculatively”) but that was going to involve more research than I have time for at the moment.

Holy Scripture though gives us some clues I sincerely believe.

St. Matthew 27: 50-51
And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom: and the earth quaked and the rocks were rent.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 50:
With a loud voice. In this our Redeemer confirms what he had said to Pilate; I have the power to lay down my life, and I have the power to take it up again: for he cried with a loud voice, and at the very hour of the evening sacrifice, to shew that it was by the effect of his own will that he died.

St. Mark 15: 37-39
And Jesus, having cried out with a loud voice, gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom. And the centurion who stood over against him, seeing that crying out in this manner he had given up the ghost. said: Indeed this man was the son of God.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 39:
The centurion considered the crying out of our Saviour as an effect not of human, but divine power, since it generally happens that people at the moment the soul quits the body are reduced to so debilitated a state, that they are scarce able to utter the least word.

St. Luke 23: 42-43
And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 43:
I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise; i.e. in a place of rest with the souls of the just. The construction is not, I say to thee this day, &c., but, thou shalt be with me this day in the paradise. Wi.—In paradise. That is, in the happy state of rest, joy and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment, and to introduce him, immediately after death, into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo (that is, the place of their confinement) was now made a paradise by our Lord’s going thither. Ch.—The soul of the good thief was that same day with Jesus Christ, in the felicity of the saints, in Abraham’s bosom, or in heaven, where Jesus was always present by his divinity. S. Aug.—S. Cyril, of Jerusalem, says he entered heaven before all the patriarchs and prophets. S. Chrys. thinks that paradise was immediately open to him, and that he entered heaven the first mankind.

St. Luke 23: 46
And Jesus crying with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this, he gave up the ghost.

[All of these verses seem to me to indicate that the soul leaves the body at the very instant of physical death as we understand it.]

josefamenendez · « **Reply #17 on:** May 22, 2022, 05:51:56 PM »

Quote from: moneil on May 22, 2022, 05:35:34 PM

I agree with Sean that this is a fascinating topic, and also I have always presumed (and still do) that the soul departs the body at the very moment of death (at the cessation of a detectable natural heart beat or brain activity). For what purpose would God have it linger? I was curious if the Church has authoritatively spoken (the emphasis being on “authoritatively” rather than “speculatively”) but that was going to involve more research than I have time for at the moment.

Holy Scripture though gives us some clues I sincerely believe.

St. Matthew 27: 50-51
And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom: and the earth quaked and the rocks were rent.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 50:
With a loud voice. In this our Redeemer confirms what he had said to Pilate; I have the power to lay down my life, and I have the power to take it up again: for he cried with a loud voice, and at the very hour of the evening sacrifice, to shew that it was by the effect of his own will that he died.

St. Mark 15: 37-39
And Jesus, having cried out with a loud voice, gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom. And the centurion who stood over against him, seeing that crying out in this manner he had given up the ghost. said: Indeed this man was the son of God.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 39:
The centurion considered the crying out of our Saviour as an effect not of human, but divine power, since it generally happens that people at the moment the soul quits the body are reduced to so debilitated a state, that they are scarce able to utter the least word.

St. Luke 23: 42-43
And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 43:
I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise; i.e. in a place of rest with the souls of the just. The construction is not, I say to thee this day, &c., but, thou shalt be with me this day in the paradise. Wi.—In paradise. That is, in the happy state of rest, joy and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment, and to introduce him, immediately after death, into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo (that is, the place of their confinement) was now made a paradise by our Lord’s going thither. Ch.—The soul of the good thief was that same day with Jesus Christ, in the felicity of the saints, in Abraham’s bosom, or in heaven, where Jesus was always present by his divinity. S. Aug.—S. Cyril, of Jerusalem, says he entered heaven before all the patriarchs and prophets. S. Chrys. thinks that paradise was immediately open to him, and that he entered heaven the first mankind.

St. Luke 23: 46
And Jesus crying with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this, he gave up the ghost.

[All of these verses seem to me to indicate that the soul leaves the body at the very instant of physical death as we understand it.]

You are correct, but you are assuming that we are able to pinpoint actual death- we can't with assurity. So the Church does give some leeway- conditionally. I think that's a good thing. Of course Jesus was able to define the moment of death as he gave His life up freely and was in total control of His death.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #18 on:** May 22, 2022, 06:44:27 PM »

I just repeated what I heard at STAS, that it was permitted to perform at least a conditional Last Rites ("si vivis") until rigor mortis, because it was a debated question. I certainly do not buy "brain death," which is just an excuse to steal vital organs from those who are still alive. We could go on for hours about that. But we really don't know and it hasn't been revealed by God how long the soul is permitted to remain united to the body. Once rigor mortis and corruption begin, then the body can no longer sustain the soul, and, conversely, the presence of the soul in the body would prevent putrefaction. We have the story of Lazarus, for instance. Did his soul go to Limbo and then come back when he was raised by Our Lord? I don't believe so. I suspect that his soul was still there with his body. It would have been like sleeping, unconscious but still present. Is this why Our Lord said that the "dead" little girl was just sleeping?

PAT317 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 22, 2022, 07:31:58 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on May 22, 2022, 06:44:27 PM

I just repeated what I heard at STAS, that it was permitted to perform at least a conditional Last Rites ("si vivis") until rigor mortis, because it was a debated question. I certainly do not buy "brain death," which is just an excuse to steal vital organs from those who are still alive. We could go on for hours about that. But we really don't know and it hasn't been revealed by God how long the soul is permitted to remain united to the body. Once rigor mortis and corruption begin, then the body can no longer sustain the soul, and, conversely, the presence of the soul in the body would prevent putrefaction. We have the story of Lazarus, for instance. Did his soul go to Limbo and then come back when he was raised by Our Lord? I don't believe so. I suspect that his soul was still there with his body. It would have been like sleeping, unconscious but still present. Is this why Our Lord said that the "dead" little girl was just sleeping?

I agree that we don't know when the soul leaves the body.

But I just wanted to point out in the story of Lazarus, Our Lord said he was dead. For what it's worth.

"Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead." - John 11:14

bodeens · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2022, 09:51:06 PM »

Miseremini · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2022, 09:53:12 PM »

SimpleMan · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2022, 10:17:52 PM »

Quote from: josefamenendez on May 22, 2022, 04:22:35 PM

This was taken from a Novus Ordo article , but the Latin is obviously traditional. Will try and google translate

Back in the day before many medical developments, moral theologians in their manuals wrote that in the case of apparent death, anointing could be administered conditionally. The form for the anointing is changed slightly to introduce the condition of life, that is, by adding the words, “Si vivis… if you are now living (then…)”. In this way, the integrity of the sacrament is preserved and, if it is possible that the person is alive, then hopefully she receives the effects.
Also, in the old manuals of theology, there was discussion of the point made before, about the way the soul separates from the body.
In Sabetti-Barrett I found:Google translation:

Now, according to the opinion of many most learned physicians, it is probable that in almost all cases men after an instant of death, as is commonly said, live within some time after the last respiration, shorter or longer, according to the nature of the cause which caused death. In cases of death from slow development of diseases, it is likely that internal life lasts for several periods, about six, or, according to some experts, one-half hour; but in cases of sudden death, the internal life lasts long, perhaps not improbably, until putrefaction. Therefore, if a priest arrives morally at the same time as death, whether from an ordinary illness or from some sudden accident, is considered to have entered the community, he can and, as it seems to us, ought to confer the above two sacraments conditionally. And we think the same must be held if in cases of illness before half an hour, and in cases of a sudden accident before the hour of apparent death, a priest arrives. But if, however, he comes to respiration but before corruption, he can administer the sacraments;

What is meant here by "periods" (momenta)? Minutes?

I read somewhere recently that the brain remains alive for about seven minutes, after which time the brain cells start losing the water that is in them, as well as oxygen deprivation.

One could have pious hope that the recently departed, if he were up to this point estranged from Almighty God, might experience some kind of internal illumination, "this is it, last call, it's just about over, do you repent of your sins, or are you determined to remain in them?".

I've heard the distinction between lingering before death, and sudden death, and how the soul might remain longer in the body of one who has died suddenly.

SimpleMan · « **Reply #23 on:** May 22, 2022, 10:19:51 PM »

Quote from: PAT317 on May 22, 2022, 07:31:58 PM

I agree that we don't know when the soul leaves the body.

But I just wanted to point out in the story of Lazarus, Our Lord said he was dead. For what it's worth.

"Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead." - John 11:14

Do we have any indication of how long Lazarus had been dead?

CarmelFlower · « **Reply #24 on:** May 22, 2022, 10:40:51 PM »

I’ve been debating on whether or not to post & finally decided to take a stab at it... please forgive me for not be as articulate as I would like.

I am the widow of Joe Wilson. There is a lot I could say but I’ll try to keep it brief. Firstly, thank you to everyone who has been praying, sacrificing or contributing support of any kind. May God reward your generosity. Secondly, I must confess I was a little bothered by the lack of sensitivity (& perhaps charity) in some of the posts. I would say that “this guy”, my dead husband, did the best he could with what he had. I ask that everyone take a moment to look deep within themselves & be careful not to judge others from afar. It is so easy to speak about the lives of others without giving any significant thought to what lesson God may be trying to teach each of us. I’ll leave it at that...

Again, many thanks for all the prayers. God’s Grace is what will carry my family through this “tragedy”. If you knew what I knew, you would celebrate with me the goodness & mercy of God!

“The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

Emile · « **Reply #25 on:** May 22, 2022, 10:49:49 PM »

Please accept my condolences to you and your family, Mrs. Wilson.

SimpleMan · « **Reply #26 on:** May 22, 2022, 11:00:25 PM »

I am deeply saddened for Mrs Wilson and the Wilsons' beautiful family, and I hope she will accept my condolences.

Threads on CathInfo often take on a mind of their own, reeling off onto wild tangents --- and that is not always a bad thing --- and I have played my part, and probably more than my part, in doing precisely this in the past, as well as in the present thread. The topic we have segued into is a fascinating one, but I do have to wonder if our moderator might break it off into a separate thread, and let this thread be more about the Wilsons, and less about parsing one's final moments in this life.

Just a thought.

PAT317 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2022, 05:09:18 AM »

Please accept my deepest condolences, Mrs. Wilson. And be assured of my prayers.

PAT317 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 23, 2022, 05:12:18 AM »

Quote from: SimpleMan on May 22, 2022, 10:19:51 PM

Do we have any indication of how long Lazarus had been dead?

³⁸Jesus therefore again groaning in himself, cometh to the sepulchre. Now it was a cave; and a stone was laid over it. ³⁹Jesus saith: Take away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith to him: Lord, by this time he stinketh, for he is now of four days. - John 11

Matthew · « **Reply #29 on:** May 23, 2022, 06:09:10 AM »

Quote from: CarmelFlower on May 22, 2022, 10:40:51 PM

I’ve been debating on whether or not to post & finally decided to take a stab at it... please forgive me for not be as articulate as I would like.

I am the widow of Joe Wilson. There is a lot I could say but I’ll try to keep it brief. Firstly, thank you to everyone who has been praying, sacrificing or contributing support of any kind. May God reward your generosity. Secondly, I must confess I was a little bothered by the lack of sensitivity (& perhaps charity) in some of the posts. I would say that “this guy”, my dead husband, did the best he could with what he had. I ask that everyone take a moment to look deep within themselves & be careful not to judge others from afar. It is so easy to speak about the lives of others without giving any significant thought to what lesson God may be trying to teach each of us. I’ll leave it at that...

Again, many thanks for all the prayers. God’s Grace is what will carry my family through this “tragedy”. If you knew what I knew, you would celebrate with me the goodness & mercy of God!

“The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”

First, my condolences and prayers for you and your family.

I am the owner and (sole) moderator of this forum; and believe me I've been reading every post, making sure nothing inappropriate or offensive is posted on such a delicate and sensitive topic. This is a moderated forum. In this thread, for example, we're talking about human beings who have suffered the greatest of human losses -- the death of a loved one. So believe me, I fully intend to do my job as moderator.

As the owner of CathInfo I've run this forum since 2006. So I know this crowd pretty well (some individuals more than others) and there are a lot of good people on this forum. In fact, I would go so far as to say there are *mostly* good people on this forum. So please give them a chance.

Just now, I found the post that offended you, where Ladislaus referred to your husband as "this guy". I understand you are grieving, but please try to understand that for many of us, he's just another man, albeit a fellow Catholic part of the Mystical Body of Christ, but whom we've never met, much less raised a family with. We've simply not had the honor of knowing him. I honestly don't think "this guy" is a slur or calculated to be offensive -- unless it is uttered with snarl and a tone of derision. I don't know how many minutes, hours, or days you've spent on CathInfo or similar forums, but the way something is said makes a *huge* difference.

I know Ladislaus (online only, but for many years), and he is an ex-seminarian, and is an excellent Catholic. Very strong in theology but also a devout practicing Catholic, married with 6 children. I'm sure he didn't mean anything offensive by it.

CathInfo members like to discuss things, like how long after apparent death one can receive Extreme Unction. It's what we do here. We're that "into" the Catholic Faith. It's our lifestyle, our life, our main hobby, it's all of the above.

As you alluded to, there is MUCH we don't know about this situation. You have to understand human curiosity, especially in a crowd that thrives on speculation, figuring things out about the world, getting to the bottom of modern errors, evils, and cօռspιʀαcιҽs, philosophizing, discussing, learning, etc.

You can share as little or as much as you want about your husband, his life and death, your family, etc. but you can't really blame people for not knowing things you haven't shared, and/or being curious. It's human nature. How many of you aren't curious when someone posts on Facebook a cryptic post like, "Ugh. Never thought that would ever happen to me." and leaves it at that? How many of you honestly can say you're not curious what he or she is talking about?

As for this particular thread, I can't easily break out that discussion into another thread, but I ask those who wish to continue that discussion to start a new thread about it. I agree that this thread needs to be about the Wilson family. I think we can give them a WHOLE THREAD of their own, keeping other philosophical and theological discussions elsewhere. Creating a new thread is free, people!

In the Immaculate Heart of Mary,

Matthew

Author Topic: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children (Read 3942 times)

SeanJohnson

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moneil

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josefamenendez

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Ladislaus

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PAT317

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bodeens

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Miseremini

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SimpleMan

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SimpleMan

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CarmelFlower

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Emile

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SimpleMan

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PAT317

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PAT317

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Matthew

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