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Author Topic: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children  (Read 9774 times)

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Re: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2022, 04:49:25 PM »
Fascinating conversation!

I just always presumed that when both breathing and heart stopped, death was present (and if death was present, the separation of soul and body was instantaneous).

That that might not be the case is almost...bewildering to me.

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but back in Old Testament times (and still today), were not Jews required to be buried within 24 hours (ie., implying the soul had already left the body within that time)?

Re: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2022, 05:35:34 PM »
I agree with Sean that this is a fascinating topic, and also I have always presumed (and still do) that the soul departs the body at the very moment of death (at the cessation of a detectable natural heart beat or brain activity).  For what purpose would God have it linger?  I was curious if the Church has authoritatively spoken (the emphasis being on “authoritatively” rather than “speculatively”) but that was going to involve more research than I have time for at the moment.

Holy Scripture though gives us some clues I sincerely believe.

St. Matthew 27: 50-51
And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.  And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom: and the earth quaked and the rocks were rent.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 50:
With a loud voice. In this our Redeemer confirms what he had said to Pilate; I have the power to lay down my life, and I have the power to take it up again: for he cried with a loud voice, and at the very hour of the evening sacrifice, to shew that it was by the effect of his own will that he died.

St. Mark 15: 37-39
And Jesus, having cried out with a loud voice, gave up the ghost.  And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom.  And the centurion who stood over against him, seeing that crying out in this manner he had given up the ghost. said: Indeed this man was the son of God.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 39:
The centurion considered the crying out of our Saviour as an effect not of human, but divine power, since it generally happens that people at the moment the soul quits the body are reduced to so debilitated a state, that they are scarce able to utter the least word.

St. Luke 23: 42-43
And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.  And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.



Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 43:
I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise; i.e. in a place of rest with the souls of the just. The construction is not, I say to thee this day, &c., but, thou shalt be with me this day in the paradise. Wi.—In paradise. That is, in the happy state of rest, joy and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment, and to introduce him, immediately after death, into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo (that is, the place of their confinement) was now made a paradise by our Lord’s going thither. Ch.—The soul of the good thief was that same day with Jesus Christ, in the felicity of the saints, in Abraham’s bosom, or in heaven, where Jesus was always present by his divinity. S. Aug.—S. Cyril, of Jerusalem, says he entered heaven before all the patriarchs and prophets. S. Chrys. thinks that paradise was immediately open to him, and that he entered heaven the first mankind.

St. Luke 23: 46
And Jesus crying with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this, he gave up the ghost.


[All of these verses seem to me to indicate that the soul leaves the body at the very instant of physical death as we understand it.]


Re: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2022, 05:51:56 PM »
I agree with Sean that this is a fascinating topic, and also I have always presumed (and still do) that the soul departs the body at the very moment of death (at the cessation of a detectable natural heart beat or brain activity).  For what purpose would God have it linger?  I was curious if the Church has authoritatively spoken (the emphasis being on “authoritatively” rather than “speculatively”) but that was going to involve more research than I have time for at the moment.

Holy Scripture though gives us some clues I sincerely believe.

St. Matthew 27: 50-51
And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.  And behold the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top even to the bottom: and the earth quaked and the rocks were rent.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 50:
With a loud voice. In this our Redeemer confirms what he had said to Pilate; I have the power to lay down my life, and I have the power to take it up again: for he cried with a loud voice, and at the very hour of the evening sacrifice, to shew that it was by the effect of his own will that he died.

St. Mark 15: 37-39
And Jesus, having cried out with a loud voice, gave up the ghost.  And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom.  And the centurion who stood over against him, seeing that crying out in this manner he had given up the ghost. said: Indeed this man was the son of God.

Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 39:
The centurion considered the crying out of our Saviour as an effect not of human, but divine power, since it generally happens that people at the moment the soul quits the body are reduced to so debilitated a state, that they are scarce able to utter the least word.

St. Luke 23: 42-43
And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom.  And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.



Fr. Haydock’s commentary on verse 43:
I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise; i.e. in a place of rest with the souls of the just. The construction is not, I say to thee this day, &c., but, thou shalt be with me this day in the paradise. Wi.—In paradise. That is, in the happy state of rest, joy and peace everlasting. Christ was pleased by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the penitent thief with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment, and to introduce him, immediately after death, into the happy society of the saints, whose limbo (that is, the place of their confinement) was now made a paradise by our Lord’s going thither. Ch.—The soul of the good thief was that same day with Jesus Christ, in the felicity of the saints, in Abraham’s bosom, or in heaven, where Jesus was always present by his divinity. S. Aug.—S. Cyril, of Jerusalem, says he entered heaven before all the patriarchs and prophets. S. Chrys. thinks that paradise was immediately open to him, and that he entered heaven the first mankind.

St. Luke 23: 46
And Jesus crying with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this, he gave up the ghost.


[All of these verses seem to me to indicate that the soul leaves the body at the very instant of physical death as we understand it.]
You are correct, but you are assuming that we are able to pinpoint actual death- we can't with assurity. So the Church does give some leeway- conditionally. I think that's a good thing. Of course Jesus was able to define the moment of death as he gave His life up freely and was in total control of His death.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2022, 06:44:27 PM »
I just repeated what I heard at STAS, that it was permitted to perform at least a conditional Last Rites ("si vivis") until rigor mortis, because it was a debated question.  I certainly do not buy "brain death," which is just an excuse to steal vital organs from those who are still alive.  We could go on for hours about that.  But we really don't know and it hasn't been revealed by God how long the soul is permitted to remain united to the body.  Once rigor mortis and corruption begin, then the body can no longer sustain the soul, and, conversely, the presence of the soul in the body would prevent putrefaction.  We have the story of Lazarus, for instance.  Did his soul go to Limbo and then come back when he was raised by Our Lord?  I don't believe so.  I suspect that his soul was still there with his body.  It would have been like sleeping, unconscious but still present.  Is this why Our Lord said that the "dead" little girl was just sleeping?

Re: GoFundMe for widow with 9 children
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2022, 07:31:58 PM »
I just repeated what I heard at STAS, that it was permitted to perform at least a conditional Last Rites ("si vivis") until rigor mortis, because it was a debated question.  I certainly do not buy "brain death," which is just an excuse to steal vital organs from those who are still alive.  We could go on for hours about that.  But we really don't know and it hasn't been revealed by God how long the soul is permitted to remain united to the body.  Once rigor mortis and corruption begin, then the body can no longer sustain the soul, and, conversely, the presence of the soul in the body would prevent putrefaction.  We have the story of Lazarus, for instance.  Did his soul go to Limbo and then come back when he was raised by Our Lord?  I don't believe so.  I suspect that his soul was still there with his body.  It would have been like sleeping, unconscious but still present.  Is this why Our Lord said that the "dead" little girl was just sleeping?

I agree that we don't know when the soul leaves the body. 

But I just wanted to point out in the story of Lazarus, Our Lord said he was dead.  For what it's worth. 

"Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead." - John 11:14