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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 7814 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2021, 08:19:59 AM »
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    In virtue of the fundamental principle that the faculties, habits, and acts are specified by their object, in the definition of free will we must consider its specifying object, and say with the Thomists that liberty is the dominating indifference of the will with regard to good proposed to it by the reason as not in every respect good. The essence of liberty consists in the dominating indifference of the will with regard to every object proposed by the reason as at the moment good in one aspect, and not good in another, according to the formula of St. Thomas: "If the will is offered an object that is not good from every point of view, it will not tend to this of necessity."16 There is then indifference in willing or not willing this object, a potential indifference in the faculty and an actual indifference in the free act which is not necessarily inclined toward it. Even when, in fact, the will actually wills this object, when it is already determined to will this, it is still inclined freely toward this with a dominating indifference that is no longer potential but actual. In like manner, the divine liberty that is already determined maintains us in existence. Liberty therefore arises from the infinite disproportion prevailing between the will that is specified by universal good, and a particular good which is good in one aspect, not good or insufficient in another. The Thomists also say in opposition to Suarez, that not even by His absolute power can God move our will of necessity to will a certain object, the indifference of judgment remaining as it is, so long as we judge the object to be good in one aspect and not so in another. The reason is that it implies a contradiction for the will to will of necessity the object proposed to it by the intellect as indifferent or as absolutely out of proportion to its scope.17


    Garrigou-Lagrange, Rev. Fr. Reginald. Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church (p. 321). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.


    God wills that man be a being capable of choosing. Man has what is called a “dominating indifference,” which is potential before acting and actual when a choice is made. Every “free” choice a man makes could be other: there is always a pro or con to every choice a man makes: if I overeat I get the additional pleasure overeating provides, but I gain excessive weight and may suffer health consequences, etc.

    God wills that all of man’s choices on earth have a pro or con aspect, and man is attracted in some sense to both alternatives presented to his choice. Man’s choice is “free” because it could be other or different, and his will is attracted to two (or more) possible alternatives, all having pros or cons. In a true sense, a man’s choice is therefore not compelled or necessary, since there is in man a desire for the alternative (there is a pro in the choice not taken), which is a real potential choice.

    Thus, a “dominating indifference” means that before choosing a man is dominated by an “indifference” in the sense that man has an attraction to both or all alternative choices, and this dual attraction is governing or dominating his nature: the fact that each possibility or choice has a pro or con to him before choosing requires a weighing or decision to opt for one or the other, and a healthy man not subject to some mental or other defect is dominated or ruled by this condition which is essential to his nature. There is “indifference” in the sense that all alternatives are the same (not different) in having a pro or con aspect.

    Before a decision is made between options, this dominating indifference is potential (it has not been reduced to an actual choice), and can be called a potential dominating indifference; when the choice is made, this dominating indifference in man’s nature is activated by the choice and becomes actual, or an “active dominating indifference.”

    Thus, even if the good action or choice made by the elect is necessarily caused by God in the sense that it could not be other, it remains a free action because the alternative choice or action is a real possibility that is apparent to the man acting: if God causes me to pray the Rosary on a Sunday afternoon I am aware that I could be watching a football game (and I am also attracted to that option), an alternative act or choice, which is a real possibility or choice; in fact, some other men are not praying the Rosary and watching the football game instead.

    Thus, a man’s acts are “contingent” in the sense that they could be other, despite God causing the act and making the dominating indifference actual. A man’s freedom lies in actions that are “contingent;” they represent one action among other possible actions. Thus, man’s “free” acts are acts done with a contingent necessity.

    Consider, on the other hand, things that happen without a necessity that does not involve the will, and which are not contingent. An animal must die and its life come to an end; a rock dropped from cliff must fall, etc. It is not possible or contingent that an animal not die or a rock not fall when dropped from a height.

    But a man’s praying or watching football, even if the action were determined by God, would still be a contingent action because it could be other, as is clear in the nature of the case of their being alternatives that are real and possible.

    Certain acts of the elect, although infallibly determined by God, are contingently necessary, and in that  contingency is their “freedom.”

    Think of it this way: God wills that the elect, those who have faith and perform just actions, be aware of the alternatives, possible rejection of Him or other “bad” actions for some other, lesser good (the “pros” attached to them), because He wills that the objects of His grace believe and act with full cognizance of the good and blessings He is working in them, which is brought home by virtue of their awareness of the alternative actions and an ultimate fate that is a real possibility for them and their kind: some men do make wrong choices and are damned. 

    Man’s “freedom” is inherent in his nature, in the possibilities he lives with and chooses among.  As St. Thomas says, God determines our actions, but He also determines that things act according to their natures. For man, that means acting freely, which means acting with awareness of other real choices and possibilities, other alternatives, that are rejected or not taken.

    For St. Thomas, man’s will is free because it is subject to a “contingent” necessity and an inherent, essential ability to choose that is in His nature, put there by God, whose image man is. Freedom is in possibilities, and alternative choices and fates are possible to man  as a distinct and unique creature of God (and exhibited in the divergent choices of distinct, individual men).

    Libertarian free will, the possibility of man doing whatever he wants without any constraint (even from God), is the “free will” of the humanists (and I think Satan); it is not Thomistic freedom.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #31 on: December 08, 2021, 10:33:19 AM »
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  • God wills that man be a being capable of choosing. Man has what is called a “dominating indifference,” which is potential before acting and actual when a choice is made. Every “free” choice a man makes could be other: there is always a pro or con to every choice a man makes: if I overeat I get the additional pleasure overeating provides, but I gain excessive weight and may suffer health consequences, etc.

    There are several more distinctions that help clarify the point under consideration.

    To begin with, good is the object of the will, and truth is the object of the intellect.  The two operations of the will are to desire and to chose; the to operations of the intellect are to consider and to judge.

    The Practical Good: Now, within man there is a sensitive appetite (the desires of the flesh), and an intellectual appetite (the judgements of reason).  Our free will stands midway between the two and has the ability to choose either.  For example, our lower nature desires to eat the cherry pie, while our intellect judges that we should eat the vegetables.  In the end, we chose (second act of the will) one or the other. This is the battle between the lower nature and higher nature - the flesh and the spirit - that St. Paul speaks of in Romans, chapter 8. 

    This act of the will pertains directly to choosing a practical good (I should do this, and not do that) not to a speculative good, that is, to a truth (I should believe this, and not believe that).

    Antecedent and Consequent Actual Grace: Another distinction is between antecedent actual grace and consequent actual grace.  Antecedent grace enlightens the mind to the truth and moves the will to choose the good.  If the person chooses in accord with the antecedent grace, consequent actual grace is given to help the person carry out the good.

    The Speculative Good, or Truth: Now, just as some acts pertain directly to the practical good (I should do this and not that), others pertain directly to the the speculative good, or to the truth (I should believe this and not that).  The intellect and will, and the two forms of actual grace, are both involved in this act as well.  Let's use an example to illustrate the point

    A Moslem hears the Gospel peached.  He is given an antecedent actual grace which 1) provides his mind with the light to "see" the truth and 2) moves his will to believe it (belief involves a choice of the will).

    Yet, at the same time, the Moslem thinks to himself, if I accept this truth, I will have to convert to Catholicism, and if I do that, I will be disowned by my family and possibly be put to death.  He is left with three possibilities:

    1) He can embrace the truth in spite of the consequences, at which point he will be given consequent actual grace to help him carry it out. 

    2) He can accept the truth interiorly without revealing it publicly ("if he will not confess Me before men, neither will I confess him before My Father"; "he who loves father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me").

    3) Or, since the will remains free, he can refuse to believe the truth.

    God never forces the will to choose the good or to believe the truth, but he gives everyone the antecedent actual grace needed to make the right choice.


    Quote
    Thus, even if the good action or choice made by the elect is necessarily caused by God in the sense that it could not be other, it remains a free action because the alternative choice or action is a real possibility that is apparent to the man acting: if God causes me to pray the Rosary on a Sunday afternoon I am aware that I could be watching a football game (and I am also attracted to that option), an alternative act or choice, which is a real possibility or choice;


    God would only cause it in the sense of giving the antecedent actual grace that moved the person's will to desire to say the Rosary.  But the will nevertheless remains free to cooperate or not.  If his desire to watch the football game is greater than his desire to say the Rosary, you can bet that he will choose to say the Rosary after the game, or chose to not say it at all.


    Quote
    But a man’s praying or watching football, even if the action were determined by God, would still be a contingent action because it could be other, as is clear in the nature of the case of their being alternatives that are real and possible.


    If God forced the person's will to choose to say the Rosary, and forced him to carry it out, neither the choice nor the act would be free, nor would either be meritorious.  God moves us to do what is good and to choose what is true, but he doesn't force either of necessity.



     
    Never trust; always verify.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #32 on: December 08, 2021, 11:08:23 AM »
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  • There are several more distinctions that help clarify the point under consideration.

    To begin with, good is the object of the will, and truth is the object of the intellect.  The two operations of the will are to desire and to chose; the to operations of the intellect are to consider and to judge.

    The Practical Good: Now, within man there is a sensitive appetite (the desires of the flesh), and an intellectual appetite (the judgements of reason).  Our free will stands midway between the two and has the ability to choose either.  For example, our lower nature desires to eat the cherry pie, while our intellect judges that we should eat the vegetables.  In the end, we chose (second act of the will) one or the other. This is the battle between the lower nature and higher nature - the flesh and the spirit - that St. Paul speaks of in Romans, chapter 8. 

    This act of the will pertains directly to choosing a practical good (I should do this, and not do that) not to a speculative good, that is, to a truth (I should believe this, and not believe that).

    Antecedent and Consequent Actual Grace: Another distinction is between antecedent actual grace and consequent actual grace.  Antecedent grace enlightens the mind to the truth and moves the will to choose the good.  If the person chooses in accord with the antecedent grace, consequent actual grace is given to help the person carry out the good.

    The Speculative Good, or Truth: Now, just as some acts pertain directly to the practical good (I should do this and not that), others pertain directly to the the speculative good, or to the truth (I should believe this and not that).  The intellect and will, and the two forms of actual grace, are both involved in this act as well.  Let's use an example to illustrate the point

    A Moslem hears the Gospel peached.  He is given an antecedent actual grace which 1) provides his mind with the light to "see" the truth and 2) moves his will to believe it (belief involves a choice of the will).

    Yet, at the same time, the Moslem thinks to himself, if I accept this truth, I will have to convert to Catholicism, and if I do that, I will be disowned by my family and possibly be put to death.  He is left with three possibilities:

    1) He can embrace the truth in spite of the consequences, at which point he will be given consequent actual grace to help him carry it out. 

    2) He can accept the truth interiorly without revealing it publicly ("if he will not confess Me before men, neither will I confess him before My Father"; "he who loves father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me").

    3) Or, since the will remains free, he can refuse to believe the truth.

    God never forces the will to choose the good or to believe the truth, but he gives everyone the antecedent actual grace needed to make the right choice.



    God would only cause it in the sense of giving the antecedent actual grace that moved the person's will to desire to say the Rosary.  But the will nevertheless remains free to cooperate or not.  If his desire to watch the football game is greater than his desire to say the Rosary, you can bet that he will choose to say the Rosary after the game, or chose to not say it at all.



    If God forced the person's will to choose to say the Rosary, and forced him to carry it out, neither the choice nor the act would be free, nor would either be meritorious.  God moves us to do what is good and to choose what is true, but he doesn't force either of necessity.



     

    Roman Theo,

    Hi. I'm not sure where you're coming from here. It sounds like there's disagreement with something I've written. Please specify the disagreement, as in quoting something and saying that's wrong, and give your reasons. It seems to me you're doing that, but it's not clear. Be precise so we can have some engagement.

    If you don't disagree, and our only giving your thoughts, fine. It's just that I'm not sure.

    Quote
    If God forced the person's will to choose to say the Rosary, and forced him to carry it out, neither the choice nor the act would be free, nor would either be meritorious.  God moves us to do what is good and to choose what is true, but he doesn't force either of necessity.

    Your not defining your terms. What do you mean by "forced"? What do you mean by "necessary"? There is such a thing as a contingent necessity, which is both contingent and necessary. It seems to me that you would reject that, and would reject any "necessity" to act in the sense of an action that is infallibly (as in, it will happen) predetermined by God. I would vigorously disagree with you, and I think St. Thomas and St. Augustine would as well, and I can cite them to prove it (or at last argue it with some support from them).

    This will help: Do you agree with this? -


    Quote
    By a truly efficacious grace is meant one that will be (is) infallibly followed by the act to which it tends, e.g. contrition. If you receive such a grace, even before your will consents to it, that grace is infallibly “sure of success;” it will infallibly procure your consent, produce that act – of contrition.

    Second question: is the action produced by the "efficacious grace" described in the quote "necessary" in your sense of necessary?

    This will help flesh out for me where there are differences, and help me see where you're coming from.

    Finally, are you quoting or relying on any other theologian or thinker, or is all of this your own thoughts? Are you quoting anyone? Seems like you are, but there's no citation.



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #33 on: December 08, 2021, 01:32:32 PM »
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  • Garrigou-Lagrange, Rev. Fr. Reginald. Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church (p. 321). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

    On https://libgen.is/ (current alias domains are libgen.rs, libgen.is, libgen.st) I found a collection of works of Garrigou-Lagrange, more than 7000 pages, including "Predestination".

    Type "Garrigou-Lagrange" (without quotes).
    Select "Search in Fields ... Author(s)"
    Search!

    The list of results has one entry: "Reverend Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Collection"

    https://libgen.is/search.php?req=Garrigou-Lagrange&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title

    Click on one of the Mirrors [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] (at the right side of the entry) for the download-page.
    To download, click the GET-Link, on top of the page.

    It's an ePub-File of ~7MB.

    I used https://www.freeconvert.com/epub-to-pdf, to create a searchable ~36MB PDF.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #34 on: December 08, 2021, 02:55:14 PM »
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  • On https://libgen.is/ (current alias domains are libgen.rs, libgen.is, libgen.st) I found a collection of works of Garrigou-Lagrange, more than 7000 pages, including "Predestination".

    Type "Garrigou-Lagrange" (without quotes).
    Select "Search in Fields ... Author(s)"
    Search!

    The list of results has one entry: "Reverend Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Collection"

    https://libgen.is/search.php?req=Garrigou-Lagrange&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title

    Click on one of the Mirrors [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] (at the right side of the entry) for the download-page.
    To download, click the GET-Link, on top of the page.

    It's an ePub-File of ~7MB.

    I used https://www.freeconvert.com/epub-to-pdf, to create a searchable ~36MB PDF.

    Marion, 

    Why would I do that? I have the book, Kindle version and paperback. 

    Tell me your point, please. 

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #35 on: December 08, 2021, 03:06:51 PM »
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  • On https://libgen.is/ (current alias domains are libgen.rs, libgen.is, libgen.st) I found a collection of works of Garrigou-Lagrange, more than 7000 pages, including "Predestination".

    Type "Garrigou-Lagrange" (without quotes).
    Select "Search in Fields ... Author(s)"
    Search!

    The list of results has one entry: "Reverend Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Collection"

    https://libgen.is/search.php?req=Garrigou-Lagrange&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title

    Click on one of the Mirrors [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] (at the right side of the entry) for the download-page.
    To download, click the GET-Link, on top of the page.

    It's an ePub-File of ~7MB.

    I used https://www.freeconvert.com/epub-to-pdf, to create a searchable ~36MB PDF.


    I think you were just being helpful and providing an online link to Fr. GL, as I call him. 

    Don't mind me. :fryingpan:

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #36 on: December 08, 2021, 04:19:32 PM »
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  • There are several more distinctions that help clarify the point under consideration.

    To begin with, good is the object of the will, and truth is the object of the intellect.  The two operations of the will are to desire and to chose; the to operations of the intellect are to consider and to judge.

    The Practical Good: Now, within man there is a sensitive appetite (the desires of the flesh), and an intellectual appetite (the judgements of reason).  Our free will stands midway between the two and has the ability to choose either.  For example, our lower nature desires to eat the cherry pie, while our intellect judges that we should eat the vegetables.  In the end, we chose (second act of the will) one or the other. This is the battle between the lower nature and higher nature - the flesh and the spirit - that St. Paul speaks of in Romans, chapter 8. 

    This act of the will pertains directly to choosing a practical good (I should do this, and not do that) not to a speculative good, that is, to a truth (I should believe this, and not believe that).

    Antecedent and Consequent Actual Grace: Another distinction is between antecedent actual grace and consequent actual grace.  Antecedent grace enlightens the mind to the truth and moves the will to choose the good.  If the person chooses in accord with the antecedent grace, consequent actual grace is given to help the person carry out the good.

    The Speculative Good, or Truth: Now, just as some acts pertain directly to the practical good (I should do this and not that), others pertain directly to the the speculative good, or to the truth (I should believe this and not that).  The intellect and will, and the two forms of actual grace, are both involved in this act as well.  Let's use an example to illustrate the point

    A Moslem hears the Gospel peached.  He is given an antecedent actual grace which 1) provides his mind with the light to "see" the truth and 2) moves his will to believe it (belief involves a choice of the will).

    Yet, at the same time, the Moslem thinks to himself, if I accept this truth, I will have to convert to Catholicism, and if I do that, I will be disowned by my family and possibly be put to death.  He is left with three possibilities:

    1) He can embrace the truth in spite of the consequences, at which point he will be given consequent actual grace to help him carry it out. 

    2) He can accept the truth interiorly without revealing it publicly ("if he will not confess Me before men, neither will I confess him before My Father"; "he who loves father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me").

    3) Or, since the will remains free, he can refuse to believe the truth.

    God never forces the will to choose the good or to believe the truth, but he gives everyone the antecedent actual grace needed to make the right choice.



    God would only cause it in the sense of giving the antecedent actual grace that moved the person's will to desire to say the Rosary.  But the will nevertheless remains free to cooperate or not.  If his desire to watch the football game is greater than his desire to say the Rosary, you can bet that he will choose to say the Rosary after the game, or chose to not say it at all.



    If God forced the person's will to choose to say the Rosary, and forced him to carry it out, neither the choice nor the act would be free, nor would either be meritorious.  God moves us to do what is good and to choose what is true, but he doesn't force either of necessity.



     

    RT,

    Are you a Molinist? That would be ok, of course. I'd have issues with it, but my opinion doesn't count where it matters. 

    Relevant to the discussion and perhaps our conflicting views (if you're a Molinist), I attach the definition of "extraordinary grace" in
    Attwater's Catholic Dictionary. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #37 on: December 09, 2021, 06:12:26 AM »
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  • Quote
    St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book II



    Chapter 21 - Instances of the Unsearchable Judgments of God.

    Therefore, of two infants, equally bound by original sin, why the one is taken and the other left; and of two wicked men of already mature years, why this one should be so called as to follow Him that calleth, while that one is either not called at all, or is not called in such a manner,—the judgments of God are unsearchable. But of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable. Yet to believers it ought to be a most certain fact that the former is of the predestinated, the latter is not. “For if they had been of us,” says one of the predestinated, who had drunk this secret from the breast of the Lord, “certainly they would have continued with us.”( 1 John ii. 19 . ) What, I ask, is the meaning of, “They were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us”? Were not both created by God—both born of Adam—both made from the earth, and given from Him who said, “I have created all breath,”( Isa. lvii. 16 [see LXX.] ) souls of one and the same nature? Lastly, had not both been called, and followed Him that called them? and had not both become, from wicked men, justified men, and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? But if he were to hear this who beyond all doubt knew what he was saying, he might answer and say: These things are true. In respect of all these things, they were of us. Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God’s books lie open, let us not turn away our view; the divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them, because they had not been “called according to the purpose;” they had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in Him; they had not been predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. For if they had been this, they would have been of them, and without doubt they would have continued with them.


    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9456-9457). Kindle Edition.

    So, why is it that some men do not enter the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation (Cantate Domino etc.) and persevere in it, according to St. Augustine? And why is it that some men do not come to embrace the Catholic faith without which there is no salvation (Athanasian Creed etc.), according to St. Augustine?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #38 on: December 09, 2021, 07:52:12 AM »
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  • But, what about man's freely willed decision to cooperate with grace? What about the voto mentioned by the Council of Trent. God foreknows the will, the voto.

    . . . 

    God would prefer to predestine all men, since he wills to do so. But he is limited by man, since the predestined have to freely assent to the call (excepting exceptions). God cannot predestine someone who doesn't want to assent (or who later backs down).

    I don't understand why St. Thomas doesn't infer that God's foreknowledge of this assent of the predestined is key to solve the "mystery" of predestination.


    Marion,

    For your consideration, and prayer, if you wish to continue contemplating this subject:


    Quote
    St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book II




    Chapter 23.—Why for the People of Tyre and Sidon, Who Would Have Believed, the Miracles Were Not Done Which Were Done in Other Places Which Did Not Believe.




    . . . But can we say that even the Tyrians and Sidonians would have refused to believe such mighty works done among them, or would not have believed them if they had been done, when the Lord Himself bears witness to them that they would have repented with great humility if those signs of divine power had been done among them? And yet in the day of judgment they will be punished; although with a less punishment than those cities which would not believe the mighty works done in them. For the Lord goes on to say, “Nevertheless, I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.”( Matt. xi. 22 . ) Therefore the former shall be punished with greater severity, the latter with less; but yet they shall be punished. Again, if the dead are judged even in respect of deeds which they would have done if they had lived, assuredly since these would have been believers if the gospel had been preached to them with so great miracles, they certainly ought not to be punished; but they will be punished. It is therefore false that the dead are judged in respect also of those things which they would have done if the gospel had reached them when they were alive. And if this is false, there is no ground for saying, concerning infants who perish because they die without baptism, that this happens in their case deservedly, because God foreknew that if they should live and the gospel should be preached to them, they would hear it with unbelief. It remains, therefore, that they are kept bound by original sin alone, and for this alone they go into condemnation; and we see that in others in the same case this is not remitted, except by the gratuitous grace of God in regeneration; and that, by His secret yet righteous judgment—because there is no unrighteousness with God—that some, who even after baptism will perish by evil living, are yet kept in this life until they perish, who would not have perished if bodily death had forestalled their lapse into sin, and so come to their help. Because no dead man is judged by the good or evil things which he would have done if he had not died, otherwise the Tyrians and Sidonians would not have suffered the penalties according to what they did; but rather according to those things that they would have done, if those evangelical mighty works had been done in them, they would have obtained salvation by great repentance, and by the faith of Christ.


    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9460-9461). Kindle Edition.

    Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong, or St. Augustine necessarily right. I'm offering it for your consideration. 

    And it has also been my position, and my argument in this thread, that the classical and ancient position of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, reflected also in the Haydock Bible annotations posted in this thread, on Predestination presents a seamless garment that flows without rent and explains the seeming "harshness" of the dogmas of No Salvation Outside the Church, no salvation without possession of the Catholic faith or the sacrament of baptism (or at least the explicit desire for it, and the actual receipt of the sacrament as to infants). 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #39 on: December 09, 2021, 12:44:47 PM »
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  • Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong, or St. Augustine necessarily right. I'm offering it for your consideration.

    Thanks a lot, Decem! Given your comments, especially Reply #30, and Garrigou Lagrange's Predestination (first two and a half pages of Part III, Chapter VIII THE DIVINE MOTION AND THE FREEDOM OF OUR SALUTARY ACTS), I've come to understand the point of the Thomists/Augustinians.

    Quote from: Garrigou Lagrange
    Finally, the Thomists retort by saying that it is the scientia media which destroys liberty; for it supposes that God previous to any divine decree sees infallibly what a particular man freely would choose if placed in certain circuмstances.

    [...]

    We saw that St. Thomas had already formulated it as clearly as possible, when he said: “It seems that the will is moved of necessity by God. For every agent that cannot be resisted moves of necessity. But God cannot be resisted, because His power is infinite; wherefore it is written: Who resisteth His will? (Rom. 9: 19.) Therefore God moves the will of necessity.” We know that St. Thomas replied to this by saying: “The divine will extends not only to the doing of something by the thing which He moves, but also to its being done in a way which is fitting to the nature of that thing. And therefore it would be more repugnant to the divine motion, for the will to be moved of necessity, which is not fitting to its nature, than for it to be moved freely, which is becoming to its nature.” From this reply, what remains of the major of this objection: Every agent that cannot be resisted, moves of necessity? St. Thomas distinguishes as follows: If this agent causes the movement, without causing the being to move freely, I deny the major; if it causes the being to move and to move freely, then I concede the major. Thus man under the influence of efficacious grace remains free, although he never resists it; for it causes in him and with him even that he act freely; it actualizes his liberty in the order of good, and if he no longer is in a state of potential or passive indifference, he still has an actual and active indifference, a dominating indifference with regard to the particular good which he chooses. This good is incapable of invincibly attracting him like the vision of God face to face. He is inclined freely toward this good, God actualizing this free movement; and since its free mode still is being, it is included in the adequate object of divine omnipotence. Such is manifestly the doctrine of St. Thomas. The texts just quoted clearly prove this to be the case.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #40 on: December 09, 2021, 01:38:47 PM »
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  • Thanks a lot, Decem! Given your comments, especially Reply #30, and Garrigou Lagrange's Predestination (first two and a half pages of Part III, Chapter VIII THE DIVINE MOTION AND THE FREEDOM OF OUR SALUTARY ACTS), I've come to understand the point of the Thomists/Augustinians.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #41 on: December 09, 2021, 01:52:09 PM »
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  • Btw, St. Thomas has a whole question with 8 articles in the Summa on Predestination - Part Ia, Question 23. 

    Here's Ia, Q.23, a.4:

    Quote
    Whether the predestined are chosen by God? [*"Eligantur."]

    Objection 1: It seems that the predestined are not chosen by God. For Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv, 1) that as the corporeal sun sends his rays upon all without selection, so does God His goodness. But the goodness of God is communicated to some in an especial manner through a participation of grace and glory. Therefore God without any selection communicates His grace and glory; and this belongs to predestination.

    Objection 2: Further, election is of things that exist. But predestination from all eternity is also of things which do not exist. Therefore, some are predestined without election.

    Objection 3: Further, election implies some discrimination. Now God "wills all men to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4). Therefore, predestination which ordains men towards eternal salvation, is without election.

    On the contrary, It is said (Eph. 1:4): "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."

    I answer that, Predestination presupposes election in the order of reason; and election presupposes love. The reason of this is that predestination, as stated above (A[1]), is a part of providence. Now providence, as also prudence, is the plan existing in the intellect directing the ordering of some things towards an end; as was proved above (Q[22], A[2]). But nothing is directed towards an end unless the will for that end already exists. Whence the predestination of some to eternal salvation presupposes, in the order of reason, that God wills their salvation; and to this belong both election and love:---love, inasmuch as He wills them this particular good of eternal salvation; since to love is to wish well to anyone, as stated above (Q[20], AA[2],3):---election, inasmuch as He wills this good to some in preference to others; since He reprobates some, as stated above (A[3]). Election and love, however, are differently ordered in God, and in ourselves: because in us the will in loving does not cause good, but we are incited to love by the good which already exists; and therefore we choose someone to love, and so election in us precedes love. In God, however, it is the reverse. For His will, by which in loving He wishes good to someone, is the cause of that good possessed by some in preference to others. Thus it is clear that love precedes election in the order of reason, and election precedes predestination. Whence all the predestinate are objects of election and love.

    Reply to Objection 1: If the communication of the divine goodness in general be considered, God communicates His goodness without election; inasmuch as there is nothing which does not in some way share in His goodness, as we said above (Q[6], A[4]). But if we consider the communication of this or that particular good, He does not allot it without election; since He gives certain goods to some men, which He does not give to others. Thus in the conferring of grace and glory election is implied.

    Reply to Objection 2: When the will of the person choosing is incited to make a choice by the good already pre-existing in the object chosen, the choice must needs be of those things which already exist, as happens in our choice. In God it is otherwise; as was said above (Q[20], A[2]). Thus, as Augustine says (De Verb. Ap. Serm. 11): "Those are chosen by God, who do not exist; yet He does not err in His choice."

    Reply to Objection 3: God wills all men to be saved by His antecedent will, which is to will not simply but relatively; and not by His consequent will, which is to will simply.



    Saint Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologica - Enhanced Version . Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Kindle Edition.




    St. Thomas talking about God's "antecedent will" to save all men is posted at Reply #1 in this thread. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #42 on: December 11, 2021, 06:38:56 AM »
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  • Quote
    St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book II

    Chapter 33.—God Gives Both Initiatory and Persevering Grace According to His Own Will.

    From all which it is shown with sufficient clearness that the grace of God, which both begins a man’s faith and which enables it to persevere unto the end, is not given according to our merits, but is given according to His own most secret and at the same time most righteous, wise, and beneficent will; since those whom He predestinated, them He also called,( Rom viii. 30 . ) with that calling of which it is said, “The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”( Rom. xi. 29 . ) To which calling there is no man that can be said by men with any certainty of affirmation to belong, until he has departed from this world; but in this life of man, which is a state of trial upon the earth,( Job vii. 1 . ) he who seems to stand must take heed lest he fall.( 1 Cor. x. 12 . ) Since (as I have already said before)[ 584 ] those who will not persevere are, by the most foreseeing will of God, mingled with those who will persevere, for the reason that we may learn not to mind high things, but to consent to the lowly, and may “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”( Phil. ii. 12, 13 . ) We therefore will, but God worketh in us to will also. We therefore work, but God worketh in us to work also for His good pleasure. This is profitable for us both to believe and to say,—this is pious, this is true, that our confession be lowly and submissive, and that all should be given to God. Thinking, we believe; thinking, we speak; thinking, we do whatever we do;( 2 Cor. iii. 5 . ) but, in respect of what concerns the way of piety and the true worship of God, we are not sufficient to think anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God.[ 585 ] For “our heart and our thoughts are not in our own power;” whence the same Ambrose who says this says also: “But who is so blessed as in his heart always to rise upwards? And how can this be done without divine help? Assuredly, by no means. Finally,” he says, “the same Scripture affirms above, ‘Blessed is the man whose help is of Thee; O Lord,( Ps. lxxxiv. 5 [LXX.] ) ascent is in his heart.’”[ 586 ] Assuredly, Ambrose was not only enabled to say this by reading in the holy writings, but as of such a man is to be without doubt believed, he felt it also in his own heart. Therefore, as is said in the sacraments of believers, that we should lift up our hearts to the Lord, is God’s gift; for which gift they to whom this is said are admonished by the priest after this word to give thanks to our Lord God Himself; and they answer that it is “meet and right so to do.” [ 587 ] For, since our heart is not in our own power, but is lifted up by the divine help, so that it ascends and takes cognizance of those things which are above,( Col. iii. 1 . ) where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, and, not those things that are upon the earth, to whom are thanks to be given for so great a gift as this unless to our Lord God who doeth this,—who in so great kindness has chosen us by delivering us from the abyss of this world, and has predestinated us before the foundation of the world?

    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9478-9479). Kindle Edition.


    Amen.

    At what a beautiful reference t0 Holy Mass embedded in this, written by St. Augustine in the early 5th century.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Thomas "richest of all commentators" on eternal predestination
    « Reply #43 on: December 11, 2021, 07:49:23 PM »
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    Pope Pius XI, Studiorum Ducem

    19. The other branch of Theology, which is concerned with the interpretation of dogmas, also found in St. Thomas by far the richest of all commentators; for nobody ever more profoundly penetrated or expounded with greater subtlety all the august mysteries, as, for example, the intimate life of God, the obscurity of eternal predestination, the supernatural government of the world, the faculty granted to rational creatures of attaining their end, the redemption of the human race achieved by Jesus Christ and continued by the Church and the sacraments, both of which the Angelic Doctor describes as “relics, so to speak, of the divine Incarnation.”

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius11/p11studi.htm

    This quote comes via John Salza, who wrote a book on Predestination, called The Mystery of Predestination According to Scripture, The Church and St. Thomas Aquinas. I just became aware of it, and am working myself through it.

    Salza indicates:


    Quote
    I maintain that the Thomist position on predestination best reflects the teaching of Scripture and the Magisterium, and will attempt to demonstrate the same throughout this book.

    Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (p. 5). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

    Very interesting. Though I have just begun the work, it appears I actually may agree with Mr. Salza on something. :)

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #44 on: December 12, 2021, 08:04:17 AM »
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  • In his book Iota Unum, Romano Amerio makes an interesting connection between the horrible alteration the Conciliar Church made in the consecration of the wine into the blood of Our Lord at Mass to "poured out for you and all" (instead of the true form, "poured out for you and many") as exhibiting an intent "to get rid of even the slightest hint of the Catholic doctrine of predestination":


    Quote
    ". . . there would have been no reason for introducing this unwonted and unhelpful change, if the translators had not been intending to get rid of even the slightest hint of the Catholic doctrine of predestination, and to insinuate the idea of universal salvation instead. There is thus a Pelagian tinge to this flight from an idea of a distinction between some men and others." Iota Unum, translated by Rev. Fr. John P. Parsons (Sarto House, 1996).


    My thesis: the gradual (and now virtual) abandonment of consideration of the subject of Predestination in the Church ripped the Church from its moorings in the sense of man as a creature subject to God's law, control, and sovereign power of determination, so that now we have a Conciliar Church that marches hand in hand with modern man's "progress" in human freedom, a march that began in the revolt of Eden (Gen. 3:5, "you shall be as Gods") and now reaches its apotheosis in the blatant attempt of the Antichrist to become God "so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God ' (2 Th. 2:4), glaringly highlighted as if in neon lights in the bastardization of the Mass in the abominable Novus Ordo, where it was blatantly exhibited in its false vernacular translation for some 40 or so years.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.