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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 7810 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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The issue identified in the subject of this thread was broached by Forlorn in a current thread on baptism of desire. In his last post in that thread, Forlorn wrote:


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I'm still confused though. The Catholic Encyclopedia says that the proposition that anyone is predestined to be damned has been condemned. This would surely include Tornpage's resolution of the issue(that God wishes to save all men only in that He created the means by which all men can be saved, and doesn't wish for the salvation of every individual, and therefore not offering salvific grace to all of them). But I can't actually find any condemnation of such. Trent merely condemns the proposition that everyone who isn't predestined for salvation is damned, which would still allow for the unbaptised infant being offered no way to save itself.

I'm not sure about anything here, to be honest. What's your own resolution of the issue?


The Absurdities of The Feeneyite Heresy - page 18 - The Feeneyism Ghetto - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

In that post, Forlorn refers to a discussion I pointed him to in another Catholic forum, here:


1 Timothy 2:4 (forumotion.com)

I told Forlorn I'd move the discussion here, and I will begin it with a citation in Denzinger (Deferarri translation, 1954) to the central passage of Scripture with regard to God's will to save "all men," 1 Timothy 2:4, which states:

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[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Douay-Rheims Bible, 1 Timothy Chapter 2 (drbo.org)

The passage is cited in Denzinger 318, where the Council of Quiersy states:


Quote
Chap. 3. Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4) although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one who saves; that certain ones perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish.


The only other time the verse is referenced in Denzinger is by the First Vatican Council Council at 1794, where it is cited with reference to the Church's divine mission (see my remarks below), the part of the verse there cited being God's desire that "all men" "come to the knowledge of the truth."

The first thing I want to note regarding 1 Timothy 2:4 is the link between God's desire to save "all men" and His desire that the same group "come to the knowledge of the truth." As the second citation to the verse by the First Vatican Council indicates, the divine mission of the Church to "all men" - which we know is Scripturally framed as Jєω and Gentile, male, female, etc. (see Galatians 3:26-29 etc.) - is being addressed here.

The question which Forlorn raised implicates whether God's desire to save "all men" is broader than merely an indication that His salvation is universal and open to "all men" without racial or any other distinction via the Church - i.e., does it encompass every single soul that has been generated in the womb or thereafter born which dies before baptism, the "only remedy" to men not capable of what Pius XII referred to as the "act of love" that requires rational choice and mature, informed and responsible will (as to the only remedy, see Denzinger 712 (Florence), 791 (Trent))?

The second point I want to make is as to the the language of the Council of Quiersy cited above. Note that the Council, after citing 1 Tim. 2:4, states "that certain ones perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish" (emphasis added).

As Ladislaus pointed out in his response to Forlorn in the above-referenced thread, infants who die without baptism do not "perish" and suffer the damnation and torment of the damned who "deserve" it (Quiersy), but go to Limbo. I believe that is why the doctrine of Limbo, while not defined as de fide dogma, is essential to the truth and consistency of our Catholic faith.

Of course, this prescinds from the point raised by Forlorn, since those infants, while not damned, are indeed not "saved" in heaven.

I will continue with a discussion of St. Thomas's reflections on the meaning of 1 Tim 2:4's reference to God's desire to save "all men" in the Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 19, Article 6.

Of course I open this up for comment and the reflections of others who have studied the Scriptures and the Church's teaching on this issue.

DR





Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2021, 12:19:43 PM »
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  • I meant to continue this topic but sort of forgot about it. I think predestination, and the divine election of the saints to glory, is an important topic, and a proper understanding of it would put a lot in focus - EENS, BOD, LIMBO, etc.  I think ignorance or error on this topic is a large cause of the Crisis (similarly to Father Feeney's believing EENS was before VII); if one gets predestination right, one will likely get EENS right. 

    The case of the eternal fate of an unbaptized infant puts the question/issue in intense focus. This was ably expressed thus:


    Quote
    THE DEATH of an unbaptized infant presents Catholic theologians with a poignant problem. The dawn star of Christian culture had hardly risen when men first raised the question, and it has continued to echo through the centuries. There are reasons enough for the persistent reappearance of the difficulty. The fate of an unbaptized child is closely tied to several highly volatile questions: original sin, the necessity of baptism, the salvific will of God. Each of these issues is a vital nerve in the body of Catholic doctrine, and each can be studied with clinical precision in the person of an unbaptized child. The question, then, is not pure pedantry; and if it seems a discouraging one, we have the admonition of St. Gregory of Nyssa: "I venture to assert that it is not right to omit the examination which is within the range of our ability, or to leave the question here raised without making any inquiries or having any ideas about it."

    (LIMBO: A THEOLOGICAL EVALUATION by GEORGE J. DYER, 1958)


    So I continue with the thought of St. Thomas on God's will to save all men, from his Summa, First Part, Question 19, Article 6, Objection 1:



    Quote
    Article 6. Whether the will of God is always fulfilled?

    Objection 1. It seems that the will of God is not always fulfilled. For the Apostle says (1 Timothy 2:4): "God will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." But this does not happen. Therefore the will of God is not always fulfilled.

    . . . 


    Reply to Objection 1. The words of the Apostle, "God will have all men to be saved," etc. can be understood in three ways.

    First, by a restricted application, in which case they would mean, as Augustine says (De praed. sanct. i, 8: Enchiridion 103), "God wills all men to be saved that are saved, not because there is no man whom He does not wish saved, but because there is no man saved whose salvation He does not will."

    Secondly, they can be understood as applying to every class of individuals, not to every individual of each class; in which case they mean that God wills some men of every class and condition to be saved, males and females, Jєωs and Gentiles, great and small, but not all of every condition.

    Thirdly, according to Damascene (De Fide Orth. ii, 29), they are understood of the antecedent will of God; not of the consequent will. This distinction must not be taken as applying to the divine will itself, in which there is nothing antecedent nor consequent, but to the things willed.


    To understand this we must consider that everything, in so far as it is good, is willed by God. A thing taken in its primary sense, and absolutely considered, may be good or evil, and yet when some additional circuмstances are taken into account, by a consequent consideration may be changed into the contrary. Thus that a man should live is good; and that a man should be killed is evil, absolutely considered. But if in a particular case we add that a man is a murderer or dangerous to society, to kill him is a good; that he live is an evil. Hence it may be said of a just judge, that antecedently he wills all men to live; but consequently wills the murderer to be hanged. In the same way God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned, as His justice exacts. Nor do we will simply, what we will antecedently, but rather we will it in a qualified manner; for the will is directed to things as they are in themselves, and in themselves they exist under particular qualifications. Hence we will a thing simply inasmuch as we will it when all particular circuмstances are considered; and this is what is meant by willing consequently. Thus it may be said that a just judge wills simply the hanging of a murderer, but in a qualified manner he would will him to live, to wit, inasmuch as he is a man. Such a qualified will may be called a willingness rather than an absolute will. Thus it is clear that whatever God simply wills takes place; although what He wills antecedently may not take place.

    SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The will of God (Prima Pars, Q. 19) (newadvent.org)






    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #2 on: November 10, 2021, 12:26:25 PM »
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  • Next, St. Thomas on predestination itself, Summa, First Part, Question 23, Article 5, Objection 3:


    Quote

    Objection 3. Further, "There is no injustice in God" (Romans 9:14). Now it would seem unjust that unequal things be given to equals. But all men are equal as regards both nature and original sin; and inequality in them arises from the merits or demerits of their actions. Therefore God does not prepare unequal things for men by predestinating and reprobating, unless through the foreknowledge of their merits and demerits.



    Reply to Objection 3.The reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. Thus He is said to have made all things through His goodness, so that the divine goodness might be represented in things. Now it is necessary that God's goodness, which in itself is one and undivided, should be manifested in many ways in His creation; because creatures in themselves cannot attain to the simplicity of God. Thus it is that for the completion of the universe there are required different grades of being; some of which hold a high and some a low place in the universe. That this multiformity of grades may be preserved in things, God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above (Question 22, Article 2). Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Romans 9:22-23): "What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory" and (2 Timothy 2:20): "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor." Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err." Thus too, in the things of nature, a reason can be assigned, since primary matter is altogether uniform, why one part of it was fashioned by God from the beginning under the form of fire, another under the form of earth, that there might be a diversity of species in things of nature. Yet why this particular part of matter is under this particular form, and that under another, depends upon the simple will of God; as from the simple will of the artificer it depends that this stone is in part of the wall, and that in another; although the plan requires that some stones should be in this place, and some in that place. Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. This is what the master of the house said: "Take what is thine, and go thy way. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will?" (Matthew 20:14-15).


    SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Predestination (Prima Pars, Q. 23) (newadvent.org)

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #3 on: November 13, 2021, 03:28:21 PM »
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  • Continuing with another one of the seminal passages on the issue, from St. Alphonsus's Prayer - The Great Means of Obtaining Salvation, Part II, Chapter 1(3):




    Quote
    Ch 3. Children who die without Baptism

    Here it only remains for us to answer the objection which is drawn from children being lost when they die before Baptism, and before they come to the use of reason. If God wills all to be saved, it is objected, how is it that these children perish without any fault of their own, since God gives them no assistance to attain eternal salvation? There are two answers to this objection, the latter more correct than the former, I will state them briefly.

    First, it is answered that God, by antecedent will, wishes all to be saved, and therefore has granted universal means for the salvation of all; but these means at times fail of their effect, either by reason of the unwillingness of some persons to avail themselves of them, or because others are unable to make use of them, on account of secondary causes [such as the death of children], whose course God is not bound to change, after having disposed the whole according to the just judgment of His general Providence; all this is collected from what St. Thomas says: Jesus Christ offered His merits for all men, and instituted Baptism for all; but the application of this means of salvation, so far as relates to children who die before the use of reason, is not prevented by the direct will of God, but by a merely permissive will; because as He is the general provider of all things, He is not bound to disturb the general order, to provide for the particular order.


    The second answer is, that to perish is not the same as not to be blessed: since eternal happiness is a gift entirely gratuitous; and therefore the want of it is not a punishment. The opinion, therefore, of St. Thomas-----is very just, that children who die in infancy have neither the pain of sense nor the pain of loss; not the pain of sense, he says, "because pain of sense corresponds to conversion to creatures; and in Original Sin there is not conversion to creatures" [as the fault is not our own], "and therefore pain of sense is not due to Original Sin;" because Original Sin does not imply an act. [De Mal. q. 5, a. 2]

    Objectors oppose to this the teaching of St. Augustine, who in some places shows that his opinion was that children are condemned even to the pain of sense. But in another place he declares that he was very much confused about this point. These are his words: When I come to the punishment of infants, I find myself [believe me] in great straits; nor can I at all find anything to say." [Epist. 166, E. B.] And in another place he writes, that it may be said that such children receive neither reward nor punishment: "Nor need we fear that it is impossible there should be a middle sentence between reward and punishment; since their life was midway between sin and good works." [De Lib. Ar. 1, 3, c. 23] This was directly affirmed by St. Gregory nαzιanzen: "Children will be sentenced by the just judge neither to the glory of Heaven nor to punishment." St. Gregory of Nyssa was of the same opinion: "The premature death of children shows that they who have thus ceased to live will not be in pain and unhappiness."

    And as far as relates to the pain of loss, although these children are excluded from glory, nevertheless St. Thomas, [In 2 Sent. d. 33, q. 2, a. 2] who had reflected most deeply on this point, teaches that no one feels pain for the want of that good of which he is not capable; so that as no man grieves that he cannot fly, or no private person that he is not emperor, so these children feel no pain at being deprived of the glory of which they were never capable; since they could never pretend to it either by the principles of nature, or by their own merits.

    St. Thomas adds, in another place, [De Mal. q. 5, a. 3] a further reason, which is, that the supernatural knowledge of glory comes only by means of actual faith, which transcends all natural knowledge; so that children can never feel pain for the privation of that glory, of which they never had a supernatural knowledge.

    He further says, in the former passage, that such children will not only not grieve for the loss of eternal happiness, but will, moreover, have pleasure in their natural gifts; and will even in some way enjoy God, so far as is implied in natural knowledge, and in natural love: "Rather will they rejoice in this, that they will participate much in the Divine goodness, and in natural perfections." And he immediately adds, that although they will be separated from God, as regards the union of glory, nevertheless 'they will be united with Him by participation of natural gifts; and so will even be able to rejoice in Him with a natural knowledge and love." [In 2 Sent. d. 33, q. 2, a. 2]



    http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/prayer/pr18.php#bk3

    At this point, I'm merely setting the ground work of important passages dealing with God's will to save "all" men, which will informs His predestination of the saints and the institution of the saving sacrament of baptism. 

    I'll likely next turn to solid, traditional Catholic annotations of the Scriptures - the notes of the original Rheims annotators of the DR New Testament translation, and the the Haydock Bible. And then some St. Augustine, whose commentary on this issue is spread out more widely through his works, e.g. his multiple works on the Pelagian heresy.  But I am aware of at least several very relevant passages that I'll post here. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #4 on: November 13, 2021, 07:15:39 PM »
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  • Good topic, Decem!


    I think it's about providence, not predestination. Like St. Alphonsus says (Reply #3). I think, his first answer is key, although he deems the latter "more correct".

    Assuming, I'm not in the state of grace. Even if God wills that I repent my sins, he may allow that I die right now before even having a chance to do so.

    How?

    He knows by providence in advance whether I will or I won't repent. I case I won't, there is no reason to wait and give me a chance.

    Same thing with unbaptized children who die before the age of reason. God knows in advance that in case they'd live on, they'd later reject Him, anyway.



    An aside: This puts me on the same foot with unbaptized children. With respect to the question, I am not privileged, just because I'm baptized. The unbaptized at least is in limbo. If I'm cut off, because God knows in advance that I won't make it to heaven anyway, then I'll go to hell, below limbo. And if I live to be 90 or 110, still the same result.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #5 on: November 14, 2021, 08:38:20 AM »
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  • Good topic, Decem!


    I think it's about providence, not predestination. Like St. Alphonsus says (Reply #3). I think, his first answer is key, although he deems the latter "more correct".

    Assuming, I'm not in the state of grace. Even if God wills that I repent my sins, he may allow that I die right now before even having a chance to do so.

    How?

    He knows by providence in advance whether I will or I won't repent. I case I won't, there is no reason to wait and give me a chance.

    Same thing with unbaptized children who die before the age of reason. God knows in advance that in case they'd live on, they'd later reject Him, anyway.



    An aside: This puts me on the same foot with unbaptized children. With respect to the question, I am not privileged, just because I'm baptized. The unbaptized at least is in limbo. If I'm cut off, because God knows in advance that I won't make it to heaven anyway, then I'll go to hell, below limbo. And if I live to be 90 or 110, still the same result.

    Hi, Marion. Thanks for your comments.

    It is true that God foresees the malice and wicked acts of the damned, though He does not cause them. It is different, however, with regard to the predestined elect: God does not simply save them because He foresees their faith or repentance, etc., but is actually and infallibly the cause of it (the elect will be saved not merely because God foresees them exercising faith and making the right choices, but He ensures that they - as opposed to others He merely permits to remain in their sin and disbelief - will and do).

    In his great book, Predestination, Father Garrigou-Lagrange quotes St. Thomas:

    Quote
    In another of his works, St. Thomas states the case still more clearly: "It cannot be said that certainty of foreknowledge is the only thing superadded to providence by predestination; this is tantamount to saying that God ordains the one predestined to salvation as He does anyone else, but that in the case of the one predestined He knows that he will not fail to be saved. In such a case, to be sure, there would be no difference between the one predestined and the one not predestined as regards the order of cause to effect, but only as regards the foreknowledge of the event. Thus foreknowledge would be the cause of predestination, and predestination would not be because of the choice of the one predestinating, which is contrary to the authority of the Scripture and the sayings of the saints. Hence in addition to the certainty of foreknowledge, there is infallible certainty in this order of predestination as regards the effect. Yet the proximate cause of salvation, namely, the free will, is not necessarily but contingently directed to this end." 9


    Garrigou-Lagrange, Rev. Fr. Reginald. Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church (p. 215). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

    You are on a different footing than an unbaptized child; we'll get to that.

    But let me comment: if one understands predestination - God's willing and providing - being the infallible cause of - the salvation of His chosen elect, and understands the truism that God determines the means and the ends of everything He "simply" wills (St. Thomas, above), then the difficulties or problems of the "fairness" of God saving only those who are joined to the Catholic Church disappears: if He wills infallibly the salvation of all who are saved (and He does), it is obvious that He would also at the same time determine the how or the way He does it (i.e., do it in the manner He selected or wishes) - via faith in Christ, the Church, or baptism, etc.


    One could no more object to His choice of how He saves than one can object to His choice of who is saved. The truth of one being established (God's choice of who is to be saved), their are no logical or legitimate grounds to justify an objection to the how, since both come down to His free determination and choice. 

    There is simply no distinction between the who and the how of election that legitimatizes an objection to the one rather than the other. 

    The election of the saved being a gratuitous act of God's predestination being a truth of Scripture and the Church's teaching, there is no ground for valid objection to God's conjoined free and gratuitous determination of the how or manner He does it. 





    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #6 on: November 16, 2021, 06:47:36 PM »
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  • The election of the saved being a gratuitous act of God's predestination being a truth of Scripture and the Church's teaching, there is no ground for valid objection to God's conjoined free and gratuitous determination of the how or manner He does it.

    Yes, indeed. And that's St. Alphonsus' second answer (quoted in your Reply #3), which he deems more correct than his first one. I think, it should answer every and all questions of those who don't understand how Our Lord can "refuse" the beatific vision to unbaptized children who die before the age of reason. As a matter of fact, Our Lord doesn't refuse the beatific vision, in the same way the holiest of the Saints doesn't earn it.

    Typically, this doesn't convince contemporaries, though, who think in terms of "human rights" and who don't think of fallen man in terms of "enemy of God". An unbaptized man is an enemy of God, ever since original sin (see Council of Trent, cuм hoc tempore, on justification). Many people imagine a father, who would be considered unjust, if he'd elect his first three sons to inherit all property, and let the rest go disinherited. They factor out the question of original sin, they factor out that the topic is about criminal children, who lost their rights as children, in the first place.

    There was a comment on CI, about abortion. The commentator thought that (beside crying to heaven) it's a particularly evil crime, because the aborted child "will be denied the Beatific Vision for eternity". As if a man could cross the plans of God, who ensures that all who are called and chosen will make it to heaven.


    But let me comment: if one understands predestination - God's willing and providing - being the infallible cause of - the salvation of His chosen elect, and understands the truism that God determines the means and the ends of everything He "simply" wills (St. Thomas, above), then the difficulties or problems of the "fairness" of God saving only those who are joined to the Catholic Church disappears: if He wills infallibly the salvation of all who are saved (and He does), it is obvious that He would also at the same time determine the how or the way He does it (i.e., do it in the manner He selected or wishes) - via faith in Christ, the Church, or baptism, etc.

    One could no more object to His choice of how He saves than one can object to His choice of who is saved. The truth of one being established (God's choice of who is to be saved), their are no logical or legitimate grounds to justify an objection to the how, since both come down to His free determination and choice.

    There is simply no distinction between the who and the how of election that legitimatizes an objection to the one rather than the other.

    I agree. But I don't have much hope that many people will be convinced by learning that not having been baptized before death implies neither having been chosen nor been elect.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #7 on: November 16, 2021, 06:55:42 PM »
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  • Decem, you said


    You are on a different footing than an unbaptized child; we'll get to that.

    You didn't give any further explanation. At least not explicitly.


    It is true that God foresees the malice and wicked acts of the damned, though He does not cause them. It is different, however, with regard to the predestined elect: God does not simply save them because He foresees their faith or repentance, etc., but is actually and infallibly the cause of it (the elect will be saved not merely because God foresees them exercising faith and making the right choices, but He ensures that they - as opposed to others He merely permits to remain in their sin and disbelief - will and do).

    I agree. But on the other hand, the death of unbaptized infants does not concern the elect and their predestination.


    In his great book, Predestination, Father Garrigou-Lagrange quotes St. Thomas: [...]

    Thomas says "foreknowledge would be the cause of predestination, and predestination would not be because of the choice of the one predestinating" (which can't be the case) if one would say "that certainty of foreknowledge is the only thing superadded to providence by predestination; this is tantamount to saying that God ordains the one predestined to salvation as He does anyone else, but that in the case of the one predestined He knows that he will not fail to be saved."

    Now, I argued not about the "predestined to salvation", but about "anyone else". I talked about "unbaptized children who die before the age of reason", who are not "predestined to salvation", but rather classified in the class "anyone else".
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #8 on: November 17, 2021, 05:50:38 AM »
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  • Decem, you said


    You didn't give any further explanation. At least not explicitly.


    I agree. But on the other hand, the death of unbaptized infants does not concern the elect and their predestination.


    Thomas says "foreknowledge would be the cause of predestination, and predestination would not be because of the choice of the one predestinating" (which can't be the case) if one would say "that certainty of foreknowledge is the only thing superadded to providence by predestination; this is tantamount to saying that God ordains the one predestined to salvation as He does anyone else, but that in the case of the one predestined He knows that he will not fail to be saved."

    Now, I argued not about the "predestined to salvation", but about "anyone else". I talked about "unbaptized children who die before the age of reason", who are not "predestined to salvation", but rather classified in the class "anyone else".

    Marion,

    Oh, now I see better. Thank you. You are merely saying that God doesn't extend efficacious and saving grace to some because he foresaw that they wouldn't (or would not) have faith and repent. 


    Quote
    You didn't give any further explanation. At least not explicitly.

    I was talking about you being on different footing from unbaptized children, and said, "we'll get to that." I didn't mean that post. LOL I meant soon enough, in the future beyond that post. 

    But to touch on it now: you are different - all adults - than an unbaptized child in that you get the sufficient grace to exercise faith or repent; they don't. If you say, "well, God foresaw that the unbaptized infant who dies in infancy would reject the grace," that is different than saying they actually get it. You'd have a whole class being denied heaven not because of something they actually did but something they would do if they had the chance, which is not given them. Anything is possible with God, and within his prerogative and power, and if that is the reason why their lives end in infancy, perhaps. So while I might think it unfair in that they never real get the chance - we have to "take God's word for it," since it doesn't really happen - ok, hey, if that's how He does it, who am I to argue? 

    But as a general matter, the truth of all eternal blessing or good being gratuitous on God's part still holds. If the unbaptized infant would not exercise faith and repent if he lived, he would be no different from those who go on to adulthood and fail to believe, repent, etc.  God - without any causal merit in the infant, or anything in the infant to distinguish him from the adult (he'd do the same thing) - sends that "faithless, unrepentant" infant to Limbo, while the adult suffers eternal torment.

    That unbaptized infant is not on the same footing as the faithless, unrepentant adult: they deserve the same, but don't get it. 

    I sense you agree with this, so maybe your point is God is merciful to the infant who dies in infancy and goes to Limbo. Absolutely agree in that case. And it fits with predestination or election to salvation being a gratuitous gift of God, which is the point of the thread - the implications of that for the necessity of the Church, baptism, etc. 

    Again, the choice of who is saved being purely gratuitous at God' discretion, so is the how. 






    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
    « Reply #9 on: November 17, 2021, 05:53:57 AM »
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  • Yes, indeed. And that's St. Alphonsus' second answer (quoted in your Reply #3), which he deems more correct than his first one. I think, it should answer every and all questions of those who don't understand how Our Lord can "refuse" the beatific vision to unbaptized children who die before the age of reason. As a matter of fact, Our Lord doesn't refuse the beatific vision, in the same way the holiest of the Saints doesn't earn it.

    Typically, this doesn't convince contemporaries, though, who think in terms of "human rights" and who don't think of fallen man in terms of "enemy of God". An unbaptized man is an enemy of God, ever since original sin (see Council of Trent, cuм hoc tempore, on justification). Many people imagine a father, who would be considered unjust, if he'd elect his first three sons to inherit all property, and let the rest go disinherited. They factor out the question of original sin, they factor out that the topic is about criminal children, who lost their rights as children, in the first place.

    There was a comment on CI, about abortion. The commentator thought that (beside crying to heaven) it's a particularly evil crime, because the aborted child "will be denied the Beatific Vision for eternity". As if a man could cross the plans of God, who ensures that all who are called and chosen will make it to heaven.


    I agree. But I don't have much hope that many people will be convinced by learning that not having been baptized before death implies neither having been chosen nor been elect.

    I agree with all of this. I think.

    I sense you are perhaps a step or two in front of me. :)


    Good post. Seriously, I think we are on the same page.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Some Annotations from the Haydock Bible
    « Reply #10 on: November 18, 2021, 12:41:51 PM »
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    John 6:34, 44 and 46

    V. 37, 44, and 66. No one can come to me, unless the Father draw him.[1]  These verses are commonly expounded of God's elect; who are not only called, but saved, by a particular mercy and providence of God.  God is said to draw them to himself by special and effectual graces, yet without any force or necessity, without prejudice to the liberty of their free-will.  A man, says S. Aug. is said to be drawn by his pleasures, and by what he loves.  Wi.

    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.




    Quote
    Romans 8: 29-30

    Ver. 29.  For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son, in suffering with Christ, in following his doctrine, in imitating his life.  This foreknowledge of God, according to S. Augustin,[6] is not merely a foreseeing of what men will do by the assistance and graces of God's ordinary providence, much less a foreseeing of what they will do by their own natural strength, as the Pelagian heretics pretended: but is a foreknowledge including an act of the divine will, and of his love towards his elect servants; (as to know in the Scriptures, when applied to God, is many times the same as to approve and love) God therefore hath foreseen or predestinated, or decreed that these elect, by the help of his special graces, and by the co-operation of their free-will, should be conformable to the image of his Son, that so his Son, even as man, might be the first-born, the chief, and the head of all that shall be saved.  Wi. — God hath preordained that all his elect shall be conformable to the image of his Son.  We must not here offer to dive into the secrets of God's eternal election: only firmly believe that all our good, in time and eternity, flows originally from God's free goodness; and all our evil from man's free will.  Ch. Ver. 30.  And whom he predestinated, them he also called to the true faith and to his service, without any deserts in them, nay, when all mankind were guilty of eternal death, by original sin. — And whom he called, them he also justified, by faith, by hope, by a love of him, and a true penance. — And whom he justified, them he also glorified.  That is, hath decreed to glorify.  Yet not all who have been justified, but only his elect, who are under his special protection, and to whom he grants a perseverance in his grace to the end: so that the call to faith, their sanctification, their final perseverance, and glorification in heaven, are the effects of their free election and predestination.  Wi.

    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.




    Quote
    Romans 9:10. &c

    Not yet born.  By this example of these twins, and the preference of the younger to the elder, the drift of the apostle is, to shew that God, in his election, mercy, and grace, is not tied to any particular nation, as the Jєωs imagined, nor to any prerogative of birth, or any foregoing merits.  For as, antecedently, to his grace, he sees no merit in any, but finds all involved in sin, in the common mass of condemnation; and all children of wrath; there is no one whom he might not justly leave in that mass; so that whomsoever he delivers from it, he delivers in his mercy: and whomsoever he leaves in it, he leaves in his justice.  As when, of two equally criminal, the king is pleased out of pure mercy to pardon one, whilst he suffers justice to take place in the execution of the other.  Ch. — Nor had done any good or evil.  God was pleased to prefer, and promise his blessings to the younger of them, Jacob, declaring that the elder shall serve the younger; that is, that the seed of the elder should be subject to that of the younger, as it happened afterwards to the Idumeans.  And the prophet, Malachy, said of them, I have loved Jacob, but hated Esau, and turned his mountains into a desert, &c. — That the purpose of God, his will, and his decree, (see the foregoing ch. v. 28.) might stand according to election, might be, not according to any works they had done, or that he foresaw they would do, but merely according to his mercy.  And though the preference which God gave to Jacob was literally true, as to temporal benefits; yet S. Aug. observes in divers places, that Jacob was a figure of the elect or predestinate, and Esau of the reprobate; and that as Jacob and his posterity was more favoured, purely by the mercy of God, without any merits on their side; so are God's elect, whom he has called, and to whom, according to his eternal purpose, he decreed to give eternal glory, and special graces to bring them thither.  Wi.

    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.





    Quote
    Romans 9:14

    Ver. 14.  What shall we say, then?  Is there injustice with God, when he bestows special favours and benefits on some, and not on others?  He answers, by no means.  And he justifies almighty God's conduct, v. 22.  In the mean time, it is certain that there is no injustice in not giving what another has no right to: and besides all men having sinned, deserved punishment.  If then, he shews mercy to some, it is an effect of his goodness and liberality only which they do not deserve.  If he leaves others in their sins, they are only punished according to their deserts.  His mercy shines upon his elect; and his divine justice is displayed against the wicked and the reprobate, but only according to what they have deserved.  Wi.

    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.






    Quote
    Romans 9:15-16

    Ver. 15-16.  I will have mercy, &c.  Then it is not of him that willeth, &c.  By these words he again teaches that God's call and predestination of those whom he has decreed to save, is not upon account of any works or merits in men, but only to be attributed to the mercy and goodness of God.  See S. Thom. of Aquin on this chap. lect. iii.  See S. Aug. Encher. c. xcviii. Epis. 194. in the new Ed. Ep. 105. ad Sixtum de lib. Arbit. c. xxv. &c.  Wi.

    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.




    Quote
    Romans 9:22-23

    Ver. 22-23.  And if God, &c.  He now gives the reason why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some, and not on others; grant particular graces and favours to his elect, and not equally to all; because all mankind was become liable to damnation by original sin: the clay that all are made of, is a sinful clay; and as S. Aug. says, was become a lump and mass of damnation.  Every one had sinned in Adam.  Now, if out of this sinful lump and multitude God, to shew the richness of his glory, and superabundant mercy, hath chosen some as vessels of election, whom he hath decreed to save, and by special graces and favours to make partakers of his heavenly kingdom; and to shew his justice and hatred of sin, hath left others as vessels of his wrath and justice, to be lost in their sins, which for a time he bears patiently with, when they deserved present punishment, who can say that he hath done unjustly?  Wi.

    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.




    Quote
    1 Cor. 4:7

    Ver. 7.  For who distinguisheth, or hath distinguished thee from another?  He speaks particularly to those proud, vain preachers: if thou hast greater talents than another man, who hath given them to thee, or to any one, but God, who is the giver, and the author of every gift and perfection?  This is not only true of the gift of preaching, but of all gifts and graces; so that S. Aug. makes use of it in several places against the Pelagians, to shew that it is by grace only, that one man is preferred before another, and not by, or for his own merits.  Wi.

    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.




    Quote
    1 Timothy 2:4

    Ver. 4.  All men to be saved.  They contradict this, and other places of the Scripture, as well as the tradition and doctrine of the Catholic Church, who teach that God willeth only the salvation of the predestinated, of the elect, and as they say, of the first-begotten only: and that he died only for them, and not for all mankind.  But if it is the will of God that all and every one be saved, and no one resists, or can frustrate the will of the Almighty, whence comes it that every one is not saved?  To understand and reconcile divers places in the holy Scriptures, we must needs distinguish in God a will that is absolute and effectual, accompanied with special graces and assistances, and with the gift of final perseverance, by which, through his pure mercy, he decreed to save the elect, without any prejudice to their free will and liberty; and a will, which by the order of Providence, is conditional, and this not a metaphorical and improper will only, but a true and proper will, by which he hath prepared and offered graces and means to all men, whereby they may work their salvation; and if they are not saved, it is by their own fault, by their not corresponding with the graces offered, it is because they resist the Holy Ghost.  Acts vii. 51.  If in this we meet with difficulties, which we cannot comprehend, the words of S. Paul, (Rom. ix. 20.) O man, who art thou, who repliest against God? may be sufficient to make us work our salvation with fear and trembling.  Wi.

    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.




    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Some More Annotations from the Haydock Bible
    « Reply #11 on: November 18, 2021, 04:08:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    John 10:28

    Ver. 28.  They shall not perish for ever: and no man shall snatch them out of my hand.  He speaks of his elect, of those whom he called by a special Providence and mercy, whom he blessed with more than ordinary graces, and with the gift of final perseverance to the end in his grace.  Wi.


    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.



    Quote
    Acts 14:48

    Ver. 48.  As many as were pre-ordained to eternal life,[3] by the free election, and special mercies, and providence of God.  Wi. — Some understand this as if it meant, predisposed by their docility, to receive the word of life.  But the Fathers unanimously understand it literally of predestination, which is defined by S. Thomas, serm. i. qu. 23. a. 1.  "The disposition of God, by which he prepares, what he will himself perform, according to his infallible foreknowledge."  In other words, it is the manner in which God conducts a reasonable creature to its proper destiny, which is eternal life.  In this mystery of the Catholic faith, which cannot be clearly explained to human understanding, because it is a mystery, there are nevertheless several points, which we know for certain.  1st. Though it is certain, that this decree of the Almighty is infallible, and must have its effect, yet it is far removed from the blasphemy of Calvinists, who pretend that it destroys free-will, and therefore removes all motives of exertion to good works.  2d. For it is a point of Catholic faith, that this foreknowledge of the Almighty no ways interferes with man's liberty, but leaves him still a perfectly free agent, and therefore responsible for his actions.  3d. It is likewise decreed by the Council of Trent, that no one can certainly know that he is of the number of the predestined, without a special revelation to that effect.  These are the most essential points, which it concerns us to know of this doctrine.  As to the consequences which may be drawn from these positions, it were better for us to submit our understandings to the obedience of faith, than entangle ourselves in a maze of abstruse errors, far removed from our comprehension.  Would that this sober line of conduct were pursued by many moderns, who at present talk and write so much on this subject, and to such little purpose.  How excellently well does the great genius of the Latin Church, S. Augustin, say: Melius est dubitare de occultis, quam litigare de occultis!  How much wiser and better is it to confess our ignorance on mysteries, than idly to dispute on mysteries!  l. viii. de Gen. ad litt. c. 5.


    Haydock, George. Catholic Commentary on the New Testament . Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn sermon on the Catholic Doctrine of Predestination
    « Reply #12 on: November 19, 2021, 09:13:53 AM »
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  • This sermon by Bishop Sanborn is a great starting point for a study of the subject of Predestination:

    http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/BishopSanbornSermonArchive/BpSan_Predestination_01-31-99_1533.mp3
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn sermon on the Catholic Doctrine of Predestination
    « Reply #13 on: November 19, 2021, 09:37:53 AM »
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  • This sermon by Bishop Sanborn is a great starting point for a study of the subject of Predestination:

    http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/BishopSanbornSermonArchive/BpSan_Predestination_01-31-99_1533.mp3

    Actually, I forgot - Bishop Sanborn has two sermons on the subject. This is the one I had in mind, though both are excellent:

    http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/BishopSanbornSermonArchive/BpSan_Predestination_02-12-95_1277.mp3
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Bishop Sanborn sermon on the Catholic Doctrine of Predestination
    « Reply #14 on: November 19, 2021, 11:24:21 AM »
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  • This is the one I had in mind, though both are excellent:

    http://traditionalcatholicsermons.org/BishopSanbornSermonArchive/BpSan_Predestination_02-12-95_1277.mp3


    Very good, indeed. The most important aspects explained lucidly and succinctly, using good examples.


    At the beginning there is an error, but it's effectively corrected later on:

    Quote from: Sanborn, 3:40
    [...] Catholic Dogma of predestination [...] while God desires the salvation of all men, and gives all men the sufficient grace to save their souls so that everyone has a chance, nevertheless by a resolved decision, he orders some people to everlasting glory [...] while others he permits to fall down through their own fault

    True is: God gives the sufficient grace to save their souls to all just (not to all men). Correction:

    Quote from: Sanborn
    [God predestines some] by willing for them the necessary graces to accomplish that end.


    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)