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Offline forlorn

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Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2019, 04:28:26 PM »
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  • It would be clearer to say that in the past "thou" was a familiar version, rather than an informal version.  It was used to show the closeness and intimacy of the our relationship with God.  At that time "you" was used with strangers, but it was not impolite or disrespectful to use "thou" with family and friends.

    As Matthew said, however, the historical usage of these words is irrelevant. Now,"thou" is referred to as hieratic language, that is, a kind of formal language set apart for solemn and religious contexts.  It is not correct to call it archaic, since it is still in current use.  Nor is it "referencing old translations."

    As we use it today, "thou" fosters a sense of the sacred because this is special language for God, while "you" is the everyday term.  I might not go as far as calling "you" disrespectful, but it is more appropriate to have special language.  Our worship is full of sacred things set apart for God.  The vestments are only for use in liturgy.  The Chalice is not used when one wants a drink of water.

    We live in a culture greatly lacking in a sense of the sacred, so it makes sense that it is good to use words that foster it.
    But when "thou" was introduced, i.e when the first Catholic English translations were being made, "thou" was not a sacred or special term at all. It was the same word as was used for friends, children, and even animals. If we had a word with a similar meaning today that was substituted in, you can bet any money Last Tradhican would be calling it the height of disrespect and borderline blasphemy. To quote him "So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies?". At the time of the 1855 Missal, the more formal, solemn term would've been "you". So by his logic, he should have a greater problem with the 1855 Missal than with the new one.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #31 on: May 14, 2019, 04:28:59 PM »
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  • Sorry I even asked you,  I should have left it as Matthew wrote:I need to remember to look at peoples reputation scores before I bother to ask them anything.
    Once again arguing with emotion. 


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #32 on: May 14, 2019, 04:29:44 PM »
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  • Anyway, my prayer book is from 1961 and has You and Yours all over the place in it - I never really paid much attention to it till now.
    I just checked my Angelus Press Missal and it has "Thou" and "Thee".  It is copyright 2004.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #33 on: May 14, 2019, 04:31:29 PM »
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  • My second language is Spanish, I am 100% of Spanish blood, but I was educated totally in the USA. I speak Spanish fluently. In Spanish people are formally addressed as "usted" and close friends are informally addressed as "tu". My grandfather was a CEO of a very large corporation with over 3000 employees, and he was older in age than the owner of the business, and even after they worked together for 50 years, in their late 80's, they refered to each other as "Senor" (Mr.) and "usted".

    The old Latin Mass missals in Spanish that I have all use the formal "Usted", and the modern ones went with Tu. There is a power behind that move in English and in Spanish.

    Those that have eyes to see let them see.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #34 on: May 14, 2019, 04:34:10 PM »
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  • My second language is Spanish, I am 100% of Spanish blood, but I was educated totally in the USA. I speak Spanish fluently. In Spanish people are formally addressed as "usted" and close friends are addressed as "tu". My grandfather was a CEO of a very large corporation with over 3000 employees, and he was older in age than the owner of the business, and even after they worked together for 50 years, in the 80's they refereed to each other as Mr. and Usted.

    The old Latin Mass missals in Spanish that I have all use the formal "Usted", and the modern ones went with Tu. There is a power behind that move in English and in Spanish.

    Those that have eyes to see let them see.
    If using the familiar form is a problem, then you should be condemning the 1855 English Missal for using it too. "Thou" may be seen as solemn now, but it wasn't back then. At the time it was the equivalent of "tu" in Spanish or "du" in German. 


    Online Your Friend Colin

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #35 on: May 14, 2019, 04:39:07 PM »
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  •  They are puffed up with pride to the Nth degree, and split-second quick to place themselves and their judgments above legions of learned Catholic (not modernist) priests and bishops.
    I say Holy Spirit when I pray with my mother or anyone else who goes to the Novus Ordo. When I'm by myself, I say Holy Ghost or when I'm around other trads. 
    I noticed saying Holy Ghost around non-trads gave me a sort of "elitist" opinion of myself.
    My predominant vice is already pride. This is one way to temper it for me.
    The Lord our God from tree doth reign.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #36 on: May 14, 2019, 04:42:35 PM »
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  • But when "thou" was introduced, i.e when the first Catholic English translations were being made, "thou" was not a sacred or special term at all. It was the same word as was used for friends, children, and even animals. If we had a word with a similar meaning today that was substituted in, you can bet any money Last Tradhican would be calling it the height of disrespect and borderline blasphemy. To quote him "So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies?". At the time of the 1855 Missal, the more formal, solemn term would've been "you". So by his logic, he should have a greater problem with the 1855 Missal than with the new one.
    At the time "thou" was first introduced, it signified the close, loving relationship we have with God.  And that was a good thing to do at time, in a culture in which this truth was obscured. (This is shortly before the rise of Jansenism, which saw God as very distant from humanity, to point where it developed into heresy.)

    But that was a different time.  The language was different and spiritual needs were different.  We live in a culture that has lost the sense of the sacred.  The word that better addresses that need is "thou" not "you".  The connotations of these words in the past is irrelevant.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #37 on: May 14, 2019, 04:45:54 PM »
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  • Once again arguing with emotion.
    For the benefit of those reading this thread, emotions has nothing to do with it, it is precisely the opposite, the reputations score here on CI are very accurate, and they have always worked for me, and whenever I answer someone with a negative score, it turns out to be a waste of time. It is best to answer as Matthew did and not give them the pulpit.  Obviously, Matthew knew the writer.

    Quote
    Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.
    If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #38 on: May 14, 2019, 04:47:29 PM »
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  • At the time "thou" was first introduced, it signified the close, loving relationship we have with God.  And that was a good thing to do at time, in a culture in which this truth was obscured. (This is shortly before the rise of Jansenism, which saw God as very distant from humanity, to point where it developed into heresy.)

    But that was a different time.  The language was different and spiritual needs were different.  We live in a culture that has lost the sense of the sacred.  The word that better addresses that need is "thou" not "you".  The connotations of these words in the past is irrelevant.
    Ok hold on now. If I said "it's a different time, we have different spiritual needs", you'd be calling it modernism. I understand that "thou" signifies closeness, but so does the Spanish "tu" which Tradhican condemns. "Thou" back then and "tu" in Spanish or "du" in German today are basically identical in meaning, and yet he's alright with the 1855 Missal's choice to use "thou" but not the use of "tu" in Spanish Missals. God does not change, so there's no reason why we'd need to refer to Him with different levels of closeness or formality depending on the decade of our birth. If "tu" today is wrong, then so was "thou" in 1855. 

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #39 on: May 14, 2019, 04:49:42 PM »
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  • For the benfit of those reading this thread, emotions has nothing to do with it, it is precisely the opposite, the reputations score here on CI are very accurate, and they have always worked for me, and whenever I answer someone with a negative score, it turns out to be a waste of time. It is best to answer as Matthew did and not give them the pulpit.  Obviously, Matthew knew the writer.
    Yet you've still not given a single reason why "thou" was ok in 1855 but not "tu" today in Spanish. Because the only reason you have is emotional, you grew up with "thou" so you like it, and you're falsely equating what "thou" means to you today with what it meant in 1855. 

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #40 on: May 14, 2019, 05:00:19 PM »
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  • Above is an example of what happens when you give the pulpit to a person with negative reputation score. There is good reason why they have a negative reputation score, they do not know when to shut up. For those others who have eyes to see, read the two quote below:


    Quote
    Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.



    Quote
    If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant. We live in a culture that has lost the sense of the sacred.  The word that better addresses that need is "thou" not "you".  The connotations of these words in the past is irrelevant.

    And nothing else need be added by me. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #41 on: May 14, 2019, 05:02:40 PM »
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  • Above is an example of what happens when you give the pulpit to a person with negative reputation scores. There is good reason why they have a negative reputation score, they do not know when to shut up. Those others who have eyes to see, read below quotes.

    Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.

    If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
    We live in a culture that has lost the sense of the sacred.  The word that better addresses that need is "thou" not "you".  The connotations of these words in the past is irrelevant.
    You were the one who brought up the 1855 Missal. What "thou" and "thee" mean in 2019 is irrelevant to what they meant in 1855, just as Matthew said about 1600 and 2019. "Thou" in 1855 meant the same thing as "tu" today in Spanish, so why is one bad and not the other? You refuse to address this because you have no explanation. 

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #42 on: May 14, 2019, 05:03:09 PM »
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  • After reading this thread I thank God I was brought up a Catholic, so my religion is not traditionalism.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #43 on: May 14, 2019, 05:07:21 PM »
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  • Ok hold on now. If I said "it's a different time, we have different spiritual needs", you'd be calling it modernism. I understand that "thou" signifies closeness, but so does the Spanish "tu" which Tradhican condemns. "Thou" back then and "tu" in Spanish or "du" in German today are basically identical in meaning, and yet he's alright with the 1855 Missal's choice to use "thou" but not the use of "tu" in Spanish Missals. God does not change, so there's no reason why we'd need to refer to Him with different levels of closeness or formality depending on the decade of our birth. If "tu" today is wrong, then so was "thou" in 1855.
    Spiritual truths are eternal and unchanging.  Spiritual needs vary according to individual and culture.  Modernism wrongly attempts to treat spiritual truths as changeable, but nobody here is saying anything like that.

    God does not change, but the world does.  We live in a post-VII, post-NO world.  There is Communion in the hand while standing, the altar rails removed, felt banners replacing statues of Saints, shunning of Latin in liturgy, virtual disappearance of Gregorian chant. This list could go on, but I hope this is enough to give the idea.

    All of these things and more are attacks on the sacred and our ability to have a sense of the sacred.  Anything we can do to hold onto the sacred is something that we ought to do.  

    As the word "thou" is used in English today, it is special language for worship.  It is sacred language, not common.  And that is why we should prefer it.

    By 1855, "thou" was no longer familiar speech.  It was already hieratic speech as it is now.

     

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