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Author Topic: From Holy Spirit to calling God You  (Read 10303 times)

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Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2019, 04:28:26 PM »
It would be clearer to say that in the past "thou" was a familiar version, rather than an informal version.  It was used to show the closeness and intimacy of the our relationship with God.  At that time "you" was used with strangers, but it was not impolite or disrespectful to use "thou" with family and friends.

As Matthew said, however, the historical usage of these words is irrelevant. Now,"thou" is referred to as hieratic language, that is, a kind of formal language set apart for solemn and religious contexts.  It is not correct to call it archaic, since it is still in current use.  Nor is it "referencing old translations."

As we use it today, "thou" fosters a sense of the sacred because this is special language for God, while "you" is the everyday term.  I might not go as far as calling "you" disrespectful, but it is more appropriate to have special language.  Our worship is full of sacred things set apart for God.  The vestments are only for use in liturgy.  The Chalice is not used when one wants a drink of water.

We live in a culture greatly lacking in a sense of the sacred, so it makes sense that it is good to use words that foster it.
But when "thou" was introduced, i.e when the first Catholic English translations were being made, "thou" was not a sacred or special term at all. It was the same word as was used for friends, children, and even animals. If we had a word with a similar meaning today that was substituted in, you can bet any money Last Tradhican would be calling it the height of disrespect and borderline blasphemy. To quote him "So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies?". At the time of the 1855 Missal, the more formal, solemn term would've been "you". So by his logic, he should have a greater problem with the 1855 Missal than with the new one.

Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2019, 04:28:59 PM »
Sorry I even asked you,  I should have left it as Matthew wrote:I need to remember to look at peoples reputation scores before I bother to ask them anything.
Once again arguing with emotion. 


Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2019, 04:29:44 PM »
Anyway, my prayer book is from 1961 and has You and Yours all over the place in it - I never really paid much attention to it till now.
I just checked my Angelus Press Missal and it has "Thou" and "Thee".  It is copyright 2004.

Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2019, 04:31:29 PM »
My second language is Spanish, I am 100% of Spanish blood, but I was educated totally in the USA. I speak Spanish fluently. In Spanish people are formally addressed as "usted" and close friends are informally addressed as "tu". My grandfather was a CEO of a very large corporation with over 3000 employees, and he was older in age than the owner of the business, and even after they worked together for 50 years, in their late 80's, they refered to each other as "Senor" (Mr.) and "usted".

The old Latin Mass missals in Spanish that I have all use the formal "Usted", and the modern ones went with Tu. There is a power behind that move in English and in Spanish.

Those that have eyes to see let them see.

Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2019, 04:34:10 PM »
My second language is Spanish, I am 100% of Spanish blood, but I was educated totally in the USA. I speak Spanish fluently. In Spanish people are formally addressed as "usted" and close friends are addressed as "tu". My grandfather was a CEO of a very large corporation with over 3000 employees, and he was older in age than the owner of the business, and even after they worked together for 50 years, in the 80's they refereed to each other as Mr. and Usted.

The old Latin Mass missals in Spanish that I have all use the formal "Usted", and the modern ones went with Tu. There is a power behind that move in English and in Spanish.

Those that have eyes to see let them see.
If using the familiar form is a problem, then you should be condemning the 1855 English Missal for using it too. "Thou" may be seen as solemn now, but it wasn't back then. At the time it was the equivalent of "tu" in Spanish or "du" in German.