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Author Topic: From Holy Spirit to calling God You  (Read 1806 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2019, 03:21:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 02:18:19 PM
    False pedantry. Historically, thou was the less formal variant and you the more formal.
    When was that? My missals only go back to 1855. Can you produce an older missal where they call God you?
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #16 on: May 14, 2019, 03:27:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 02:49:33 PM
    ...and for good reason! That is my point.

    99 times out of 100, someone who uses "Holy Spirit" in public (among Trads) is very new to Tradition, and not fully Trad-ified yet. And not being Trad today is generally a very bad thing! If they aren't Trad-ified, that means they have a lot of Novus Ordo baggage, haven't eliminated much of their Novus Ordo-induced ignorance of the Faith yet, haven't got used to frequent confession yet, etc.

    Remember, the essentials of being a Trad are ALL good things: being strong in one's Faith, having the heart to practice heroic virtue in some areas at times, having the Faith be the center of one's life, knowing one's Faith well, being faithful to Catholicism in all its dogmas and practices (keeping in mind that Catholicism is a fundamentally traditional and stable religion that doesn't change much, certainly not in its dogmas or morality)

    Being rude, being lazy, being unmotivated -- none of those things are essential to the Traditional movement, though they are found in a few of its members.
    I was under the impression that the use of the word “Ghost”, derived from the German, was more specific to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. All Spirits that dwell in Heaven are Holy, thus Holy Spirit is less specific, although certainly not incorrect. To be perfectly clear, I always use Holy Ghost.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #17 on: May 14, 2019, 03:34:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 02:51:51 PM
    Yes, but this is 2019, not some earlier point in history. Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.
    If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
    And yet, all the English Bible translations from back then used "thou" and "thee". Similarly the Germans always used "du" for God. In Latin, Hebrew, etc. there's no distinction between formal and informal versions of the 2nd person singular. Most languages with a distinction use the informal version. A notable exception is French, but there's plenty of usage of "tu" for God even in French dating back centuries. 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction
    I'd also question the assumption that "thee" and "thou" are formal in modern English. They're just archaic. No one addresses a President or King or anyone as "thou"(it's Your Majesty, not Thy Majesty). People only do it with God because they're referencing old translations, which is perfectly fine of course, but to act as if saying the general "you"(which is used both formally and informally in modern English) is disrespectful when in fact "thou" and "thee" were brought in when they were informal, is just plain wrong. 
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #18 on: May 14, 2019, 03:35:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 03:21:11 PM
    When was that? My missals only go back to 1855. Can you produce an older missal where they call God you?
    No because they only ever used "thou" and "thee", which were the informal variants of "you". Thanks for proving my point, I guess?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #19 on: May 14, 2019, 03:35:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on May 14, 2019, 03:27:40 PM
    I was under the impression that the use of the word “Ghost”, derived from the German, was more specific to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. All Spirits that dwell in Heaven are Holy, thus Holy Spirit is less specific, although certainly not incorrect. To be perfectly clear, I always use Holy Ghost.
    Same as I was taught by my priest who was ordained in 1951. Like I said in the OP


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    I always remember my priest, ordained in 1951, telling me, there are many holy spirits but only one Holy Ghost.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #20 on: May 14, 2019, 03:36:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:35:12 PM
    No because they only ever used "thou" and "thee", which were the informal variants of "you". Thanks for proving my point, I guess?
    So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies? Do you agree with todays missals calling God you?

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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #21 on: May 14, 2019, 03:39:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 03:36:55 PM
    So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies? Do you agree with todays missals calling God you?
    I'm just stating a matter of fact. "Thou" is not and was never the formal. It was always the informal/personal form. If you have a problem with God being referred to as "you"(which isn't even informal, it's both, e.g "Your Majesty" is not informal), then you should also have a problem with the 1855 Missal refering to Him as "thou". 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #22 on: May 14, 2019, 03:41:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:39:30 PM
    I'm just stating a matter of fact. "Thou" is not and was never the formal. It was always the informal/personal form.
    I asked two questions which you did not answer. 
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #23 on: May 14, 2019, 03:47:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 03:41:19 PM
    I asked two questions which you did not answer.
    Your questions are moronic because you're falsely calling "you" informal, and you're ignoring the fact that in the 1855 Missals you cited, "thou" was the informal form. I don't "agree" with the new Missal, but so far you've been completely unable to say why exactly it's an innovation or a problem. It's just using the generic(both formal and informal) 2nd person singular pronoun, just as Latin does. The Latin also uses the same word 2nd person singular pronoun for God as "nobodies". So in actual fact, using "you" is actually more formal and closer to the Latin than "thou" was when that 1855 Missal was new. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #24 on: May 14, 2019, 04:00:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:34:03 PM
    And yet, all the English Bible translations from back then used "thou" and "thee". Similarly the Germans always used "du" for God. In Latin, Hebrew, etc. there's no distinction between formal and informal versions of the 2nd person singular. Most languages with a distinction use the informal version. A notable exception is French, but there's plenty of usage of "tu" for God even in French dating back centuries.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction
    I'd also question the assumption that "thee" and "thou" are formal in modern English. They're just archaic. No one addresses a President or King or anyone as "thou"(it's Your Majesty, not Thy Majesty). People only do it with God because they're referencing old translations, which is perfectly fine of course, but to act as if saying the general "you"(which is used both formally and informally in modern English) is disrespectful when in fact "thou" and "thee" were brought in when they were informal, is just plain wrong.
    I have in my hands a 1966 missal, I went to look up the opening of the mass, the beautiful Psalm 42 which converted me, and it is gone. Totally eliminated. So I'll go elsewhere to give examples of "you" and you tell me if a king was ever addressed as this?

    O God, You give us life again
    And Your people will rejoice in You
    Show us Lord Your kindness
    And grant us Your salvation
    O Lord hear my prayer
    And let my cry come to You

    Take away from us our sins O Lord, we beseech You...

    We beseech You, by the merits of your saints....
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #25 on: May 14, 2019, 04:04:05 PM »
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    • I've observed the only time prots and NOers *don't* use "Holy Spirit" and use "Holy Ghost" instead, is when they are trying to attribute complete orthodoxy to whatever it is that they are "preaching".

    I recall a very good priest in the late 60s who was expelled from his rectory by his bishop for refusing to go along with the revolution, he used both Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit, not always in the same sermon though. One of the men asked him about it at breakfast, he said that he often used "Holy Spirit" as a tool "to show the heretics that I can speak their language as well as they can, except when I preach, I preach Catholicism, not hootananyism".

    It really does not matter which one is used, but for us, we are all more familiar and comfortable with Holy Ghost, whereas Holy Spirit rings as a type of deceit or slander to our ears because of it being stolen and habitually [mis]used and abused by the enemy.

    Anyway, my prayer book is from 1961 and has You and Yours all over the place in it - I never really paid much attention to it till now.



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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #26 on: May 14, 2019, 04:04:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:47:35 PM
    Your questions are moronic ...
    Then you should have no problem answering them. Answer the  questions

    Quote
    So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies? Do you agree with todays missals calling God you?

    Are you gαy or melancholic?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #27 on: May 14, 2019, 04:15:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 04:00:12 PM
    I have in my hands a 1966 missal, I went to look up the opening of the mass, the beautiful Psalm 42 which converted me, and it is gone. Totally eliminated. So I'll go elsewhere to give examples of "you" and you tell me if a king was ever addressed as this?

    O God, You give us life again
    And Your people will rejoice in You
    Show us Lord Your kindness
    And grant us Your salvation
    O Lord hear my prayer
    And let my cry come to You

    Take away from us our sins O Lord, we beseech You...

    We beseech You, by the merits of your saints....
    You would use "you" with a King. "Your Majesty" not "thy Majesty". 
    Citing times they use "you" is not proof that "you" is informal. Once again, "you" is neither formal nor informal. The same as its translation in Latin. Whereas "thou" when used in the 1855 Missal you cited, WAS INFORMAL. 

    Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 04:04:19 PM
    Then you should have no problem answering them. Answer the  questions

    Are you gαy or melancholic?

    I already addressed both questions, imbecile. I'll repeat: As to the first, "you" is not informal, whereas "thou" in the old Missals was. So your accusations apply to the OLD Missals and not the new ones.

    As for the second, I already said I don't "agree" with the Missals in that I really don't care about "you" vs "thou" as you've given absolutely no reason why "you" is less appropriate than "thou". The usage of "you" exactly mirrors the Latin equivalent, and is in fact less informal than "thou" was in the old translations. Your complete inability to actually respond to and attempt to refute my points is what's effeminate here, you're arguing with emotion.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #28 on: May 14, 2019, 04:22:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:34:03 PM
    And yet, all the English Bible translations from back then used "thou" and "thee". Similarly the Germans always used "du" for God. In Latin, Hebrew, etc. there's no distinction between formal and informal versions of the 2nd person singular. Most languages with a distinction use the informal version. A notable exception is French, but there's plenty of usage of "tu" for God even in French dating back centuries.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction
    I'd also question the assumption that "thee" and "thou" are formal in modern English. They're just archaic. No one addresses a President or King or anyone as "thou"(it's Your Majesty, not Thy Majesty). People only do it with God because they're referencing old translations, which is perfectly fine of course, but to act as if saying the general "you"(which is used both formally and informally in modern English) is disrespectful when in fact "thou" and "thee" were brought in when they were informal, is just plain wrong.
    It would be clearer to say that in the past "thou" was a familiar version, rather than an informal version.  It was used to show the closeness and intimacy of the our relationship with God.  At that time "you" was used with strangers, but it was not impolite or disrespectful to use "thou" with family and friends.

    As Matthew said, however, the historical usage of these words is irrelevant. Now,"thou" is referred to as hieratic language, that is, a kind of formal language set apart for solemn and religious contexts.  It is not correct to call it archaic, since it is still in current use.  Nor is it "referencing old translations."

    As we use it today, "thou" fosters a sense of the sacred because this is special language for God, while "you" is the everyday term.  I might not go as far as calling "you" disrespectful, but it is more appropriate to have special language.  Our worship is full of sacred things set apart for God.  The vestments are only for use in liturgy.  The Chalice is not used when one wants a drink of water.

    We live in a culture greatly lacking in a sense of the sacred, so it makes sense that it is good to use words that foster it.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #29 on: May 14, 2019, 04:22:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 04:15:21 PM
    I already addressed both questions, imbecile. 
    Sorry I even asked you,  I should have left it as Matthew wrote:
    Quote
    Yes, but this is 2019, not some earlier point in history. Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.
    If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
    I need to remember to look at peoples reputation scores before I bother to ask them anything.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24
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