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Author Topic: From Holy Spirit to calling God You  (Read 1807 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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From Holy Spirit to calling God You
« on: May 14, 2019, 09:12:02 AM »
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    • I was looking online for the Latin Mass words to copy and paste in an email to a relative and lost 1/2 hour trying to find an online source that didn't say Holy Spirit or call God you. Moreover, they all called the mass the Extraordinary Rite.

    I always remember my priest, ordained in 1951, telling me, there are many holy spirits but only one Holy Ghost. I get suspicious every time someone says holy spirit. Then comes the final BOMB that gives them away, they call the three persons of the Most Holy Trinity,  you.

    Calling God you, totally egalitarian, Dust Mite dung calling the King of Kings, you. This shows that they have no fear of God.

    The future of "tradition" is not bright.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #1 on: May 14, 2019, 09:23:34 AM »
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    • Where does this leave the English language Novos Ordo baptism? Are those who are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit actually baptised?

    Are they conditionally rebaptised?

    What form was used for the baptism of Bishop Williamson?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #2 on: May 14, 2019, 09:28:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on May 14, 2019, 09:23:34 AM
    Where does this leave the English Language Novos Ordo baptism? Are those who are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit actually baptised?

    What form used for the baptism of Bishop Williamson?
    Holy Spirit can be used as translation in a baptism in English, however, using it today is an indicator that one may not be a true traditionalist, or they are hard heads. The give away is when they call God, you, and of course there are many other indicators.

    Holy Ghost is totally English, two English words, derived from the Germanic language. It was always how it was said in English. Holy Spirit is a English and Latin mixed word.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #3 on: May 14, 2019, 09:31:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on May 14, 2019, 09:23:34 AM
    Where does this leave the English language Novos Ordo baptism? Are those who are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit actually baptised?

    Are they conditionally rebaptised?

    What form was used for the baptism of Bishop Williamson?

    Settle down. This is just "Last Tradhican" giving his personal opinion on "Holy Ghost" vs "Holy Spirit". It is barely a valid opinion at all, much less something that will shake the entire Trad world like an earthquake.

    He has not ruled once and for all. He is not the Pope. If he were the Pope, maybe it would justify your nail-biting, far out responses.

    No, "Holy Spirit" is not invalid, nor is it even offensive to Catholic morality. It is absolutely valid, being an accurate translation of "Sanctus Spiritus".

    So all your questions are moot -- that is to say, worthless.

    Sometimes armchair theologians make me sick.  They are puffed up with pride to the Nth degree, and split-second quick to place themselves and their judgments above legions of learned Catholic (not modernist) priests and bishops.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #4 on: May 14, 2019, 09:36:40 AM »
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    • Saying "Holy Ghost" instead of "Holy Spirit" is a shibboleth of sorts, a keyword that shows we are Traditional.

    So it is good to use "Holy Ghost", to show we are not ashamed of Catholic Tradition.

    Also, all the Modernists use Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean it's objectively wrong, inaccurate, or sinful -- but we shouldn't use it because who wants to sound like a Novus Ordo Modernist?

    In other words, we should avoid the term "Holy Spirit" for reasons of PRUDENCE and that is the end of the list. There is nothing objectively wrong with the term.

    It is also a bad idea to bring the Gospel, or our speech to God, down to a comic book, banal, everyday tone or level. That is why we shouldn't call God with the same term we use for the mailman ("you").

    There is a similar reason for women wearing long skirts. (There are other reasons too, but I'm focusing on just one reason here.) Even if one could argue that certain kinds of pants with a long shirt over it met the norms of Catholic modesty, why would you? I mean, most worldlings aren't going to single you out or give you a hard time for wearing loose fitting pants with a loose shirt over it. Won't they just assume you're like everyone else in the World? How will they know you're a Trad then? Why shouldn't we scream to the world that we're Traditional Catholics, and that we're not ashamed of our Faith?

    You don't want pagan residents of Sodom and Gomorrah to treat you like one of their own, or fail to give you a hard time, do you? You really want to "fit in", in the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah? God forbid!

    You really want this?

    I love Hillary Clinton! She is awesome!
    Obama is like a messiah!
    Archbishop Lefebvre was a disobedient rebel!
    The Catholic Church is horrible!
    Abortion is just reproductive rights for women.
    People should be able to love whoever they want.
    Matthew is a great guy!


    Um...no?

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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #5 on: May 14, 2019, 10:02:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 09:31:59 AM
    Settle down. This is just "Last Tradhican" giving his personal opinion on "Holy Ghost" vs "Holy Spirit". It is barely a valid opinion at all, much less something that will shake the entire Trad world like an earthquake.

    He has not ruled once and for all. He is not the Pope.     If he were the Pope, maybe it would justify your nail-biting, far out responses.

    No, "Holy Spirit" is not invalid, nor is it even offensive to Catholic morality. It is absolutely valid, being an accurate translation of "Sanctus Spiritus".

    So all your questions are moot -- that is to say, worthless.

    Sometimes armchair theologians make me sick.  They are puffed up with pride to the Nth degree, and split-second quick to place themselves and their judgments above legions of learned Catholic (not modernist) priests and bishops.
    There, that's better. (although it is the opinion of Fr. Carl Pulvermacher the priest that I mentioned in the OP that was ordained in 1951)
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #6 on: May 14, 2019, 10:02:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 09:36:40 AM
    Saying "Holy Ghost" instead of "Holy Spirit" is a shibboleth of sorts, a keyword that shows we are Traditional.

    So it is good to use "Holy Ghost", to show we are not ashamed of Catholic Tradition.

    Also, all the Modernists use Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean it's objectively wrong, inaccurate, or sinful -- but we shouldn't use it because who wants to sound like a Novus Ordo Modernist?

    In other words, we should avoid the term "Holy Spirit" for reasons of PRUDENCE and that is the end of the list. There is nothing objectively wrong with the term.

    It is also a bad idea to bring the Gospel, or our speech to God, down to a comic book, banal, everyday tone or level. That is why we shouldn't call God with the same term we use for the mailman ("you").

    There is a similar reason for women wearing long skirts. (There are other reasons too, but I'm focusing on just one reason here.) Even if one could argue that certain kinds of pants with a long shirt over it met the norms of Catholic modesty, why would you? I mean, most worldlings aren't going to single you out or give you a hard time for wearing loose fitting pants with a loose shirt over it. Won't they just assume you're like everyone else in the World? How will they know you're a Trad then? Why shouldn't we scream to the world that we're Traditional Catholics, and that we're not ashamed of our Faith?

    You don't want pagan residents of Sodom and Gomorrah to treat you like one of their own, or fail to give you a hard time, do you? You really want to "fit in", in the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah? God forbid!

    You really want this?

    I love Hillary Clinton! She is awesome!
    Obama is like a messiah!
    Archbishop Lefebvre was a disobedient rebel!
    The Catholic Church is horrible!
    Abortion is just reproductive rights for women.
    People should be able to love whoever they want.
    Matthew is a great guy!


    Um...no?
    Exactly.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #7 on: May 14, 2019, 11:14:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Confiteor Deo on May 14, 2019, 09:23:34 AM
    Where does this leave the English language Novos Ordo baptism? Are those who are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit actually baptised?

    Are they conditionally rebaptised?

    What form was used for the baptism of Bishop Williamson?
    By the way, Last Tradhican, this is the "armchair theology" I was criticizing, saying that it made me sick.
    He took your opinion as a springboard, and went WAY OUT THERE with it.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #8 on: May 14, 2019, 12:26:41 PM »
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    • We had a hotly-debated thread on this subject a long time ago.  I actually "came out" with my preference for term Holy Spirit, not only because it etymologically follows the Latin, but because the term "ghost" has picked up in more recent times the strong connotation of referring to a disembodied human soul.  You could go back and forth.  I prefer the French (Latinate / Romance) in the English language to the barbaric Saxon elements ... LOL.  Neither term is inherently good or bad, wrong or right, valid or invalid.  Both are valid.  If either one had been invalid, the Church would have pronounced on it long ago ... since both terms were in use among Catholics even before Vatican II.

    So, for instance, when I pray the Rosary and am not praying in Latin, I always use Holy Spirit, but among Traditional Catholics I always use "Ghost" because, as Matthew points out, it's become this shibboleth, and I don't want to cause scandal.  Many Traditional Catholics immediately in their minds label you as "suspect of Modernism" if you ever use the term Holy Spirit.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #9 on: May 14, 2019, 01:03:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 14, 2019, 12:26:41 PM
    We had a hotly-debated thread on this subject a long time ago.  I actually "came out" with my preference for term Holy Spirit, not only because it etymologically follows the Latin, but because the term "ghost" has picked up in more recent times the strong connotation of referring to a disembodied human soul.  You could go back and forth.  I prefer the French (Latinate / Romance) in the English language to the barbaric Saxon elements ... LOL.  Neither term is inherently good or bad, wrong or right, valid or invalid.  Both are valid.  If either one had been invalid, the Church would have pronounced on it long ago ... since both terms were in use among Catholics even before Vatican II.

    So, for instance, when I pray the Rosary and am not praying in Latin, I always use Holy Spirit, but among Traditional Catholics I always use "Ghost" because, as Matthew points out, it's become this shibboleth, and I don't want to cause scandal.  Many Traditional Catholics immediately in their minds label you as "suspect of Modernism" if you ever use the term Holy Spirit.
    I understand all of that, but what about calling God , you. I see it a many post 1959 Latin mass missals, usually along with those Picaso-esque ugly drawings to ridicule art.

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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #10 on: May 14, 2019, 01:32:31 PM »
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    • Where are you seeing God referred to as "you"? Only contexts I ever hear it used in is in prayers like "Please Lord, grant me Your help in..." etc. Saying "Lord, grant me the Lord's help" or "God, grant me God's help" would sound very strange grammatically in English and almost as if you were referring to another God. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #11 on: May 14, 2019, 01:49:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 01:32:31 PM
    Where are you seeing God referred to as "you"? Only contexts I ever hear it used in is in prayers like "Please Lord, grant me Your help in..." etc. Saying "Lord, grant me the Lord's help" or "God, grant me God's help" would sound very strange grammatically in English and almost as if you were referring to another God.
    Please Lord, grant me Thy help in.....
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #12 on: May 14, 2019, 02:18:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 01:49:21 PM
    Please Lord, grant me Thy help in.....
    False pedantry. Historically, thou was the less formal variant and you the more formal. 
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #13 on: May 14, 2019, 02:49:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 14, 2019, 12:26:41 PM
    but among Traditional Catholics I always use "Ghost" because, as Matthew points out, it's become this shibboleth, and I don't want to cause scandal.  Many Traditional Catholics immediately in their minds label you as "suspect of Modernism" if you ever use the term Holy Spirit.

    ...and for good reason! That is my point.

    99 times out of 100, someone who uses "Holy Spirit" in public (among Trads) is very new to Tradition, and not fully Trad-ified yet. And not being Trad today is generally a very bad thing! If they aren't Trad-ified, that means they have a lot of Novus Ordo baggage, haven't eliminated much of their Novus Ordo-induced ignorance of the Faith yet, haven't got used to frequent confession yet, etc.

    Remember, the essentials of being a Trad are ALL good things: being strong in one's Faith, having the heart to practice heroic virtue in some areas at times, having the Faith be the center of one's life, knowing one's Faith well, being faithful to Catholicism in all its dogmas and practices (keeping in mind that Catholicism is a fundamentally traditional and stable religion that doesn't change much, certainly not in its dogmas or morality)

    Being rude, being lazy, being unmotivated -- none of those things are essential to the Traditional movement, though they are found in a few of its members.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
    « Reply #14 on: May 14, 2019, 02:51:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 02:18:19 PM
    False pedantry. Historically, thou was the less formal variant and you the more formal.

    Yes, but this is 2019, not some earlier point in history. Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.
    If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
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