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Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 09:12:02 AM

Title: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 09:12:02 AM
I was looking online for the Latin Mass words to copy and paste in an email to a relative and lost 1/2 hour trying to find an online source that didn't say Holy Spirit or call God you. Moreover, they all called the mass the Extraordinary Rite.

I always remember my priest, ordained in 1951, telling me, there are many holy spirits but only one Holy Ghost. I get suspicious every time someone says holy spirit. Then comes the final BOMB that gives them away, they call the three persons of the Most Holy Trinity,  you.

Calling God you, totally egalitarian, Dust Mite dung calling the King of Kings, you. This shows that they have no fear of God.

The future of "tradition" is not bright.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Confiteor Deo on May 14, 2019, 09:23:34 AM
Where does this leave the English language Novos Ordo baptism? Are those who are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit actually baptised?

Are they conditionally rebaptised?

What form was used for the baptism of Bishop Williamson?
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 09:28:20 AM
Where does this leave the English Language Novos Ordo baptism? Are those who are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit actually baptised?

What form used for the baptism of Bishop Williamson?
Holy Spirit can be used as translation in a baptism in English, however, using it today is an indicator that one may not be a true traditionalist, or they are hard heads. The give away is when they call God, you, and of course there are many other indicators.

Holy Ghost is totally English, two English words, derived from the Germanic language. It was always how it was said in English. Holy Spirit is a English and Latin mixed word.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 09:31:59 AM
Where does this leave the English language Novos Ordo baptism? Are those who are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit actually baptised?

Are they conditionally rebaptised?

What form was used for the baptism of Bishop Williamson?

Settle down. This is just "Last Tradhican" giving his personal opinion on "Holy Ghost" vs "Holy Spirit". It is barely a valid opinion at all, much less something that will shake the entire Trad world like an earthquake.

He has not ruled once and for all. He is not the Pope. If he were the Pope, maybe it would justify your nail-biting, far out responses.

No, "Holy Spirit" is not invalid, nor is it even offensive to Catholic morality. It is absolutely valid, being an accurate translation of "Sanctus Spiritus".

So all your questions are moot -- that is to say, worthless.

Sometimes armchair theologians make me sick.  They are puffed up with pride to the Nth degree, and split-second quick to place themselves and their judgments above legions of learned Catholic (not modernist) priests and bishops.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 09:36:40 AM
Saying "Holy Ghost" instead of "Holy Spirit" is a shibboleth of sorts, a keyword that shows we are Traditional.

So it is good to use "Holy Ghost", to show we are not ashamed of Catholic Tradition.

Also, all the Modernists use Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean it's objectively wrong, inaccurate, or sinful -- but we shouldn't use it because who wants to sound like a Novus Ordo Modernist?

In other words, we should avoid the term "Holy Spirit" for reasons of PRUDENCE and that is the end of the list. There is nothing objectively wrong with the term.

It is also a bad idea to bring the Gospel, or our speech to God, down to a comic book, banal, everyday tone or level. That is why we shouldn't call God with the same term we use for the mailman ("you").

There is a similar reason for women wearing long skirts. (There are other reasons too, but I'm focusing on just one reason here.) Even if one could argue that certain kinds of pants with a long shirt over it met the norms of Catholic modesty, why would you? I mean, most worldlings aren't going to single you out or give you a hard time for wearing loose fitting pants with a loose shirt over it. Won't they just assume you're like everyone else in the World? How will they know you're a Trad then? Why shouldn't we scream to the world that we're Traditional Catholics, and that we're not ashamed of our Faith?

You don't want pagan residents of Sodom and Gomorrah to treat you like one of their own, or fail to give you a hard time, do you? You really want to "fit in", in the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah? God forbid!

You really want this?

I love Hillary Clinton! She is awesome!
Obama is like a messiah!
Archbishop Lefebvre was a disobedient rebel!
The Catholic Church is horrible!
Abortion is just reproductive rights for women.
People should be able to love whoever they want.
Matthew is a great guy!


Um...no?

Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 10:02:05 AM
Settle down. This is just "Last Tradhican" giving his personal opinion on "Holy Ghost" vs "Holy Spirit". It is barely a valid opinion at all, much less something that will shake the entire Trad world like an earthquake.

He has not ruled once and for all. He is not the Pope.
If he were the Pope, maybe it would justify your nail-biting, far out responses.

No, "Holy Spirit" is not invalid, nor is it even offensive to Catholic morality. It is absolutely valid, being an accurate translation of "Sanctus Spiritus".

So all your questions are moot -- that is to say, worthless.

Sometimes armchair theologians make me sick.  They are puffed up with pride to the Nth degree, and split-second quick to place themselves and their judgments above legions of learned Catholic (not modernist) priests and bishops.
There, that's better. (although it is the opinion of Fr. Carl Pulvermacher the priest that I mentioned in the OP that was ordained in 1951)
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 10:02:46 AM
Saying "Holy Ghost" instead of "Holy Spirit" is a shibboleth of sorts, a keyword that shows we are Traditional.

So it is good to use "Holy Ghost", to show we are not ashamed of Catholic Tradition.

Also, all the Modernists use Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean it's objectively wrong, inaccurate, or sinful -- but we shouldn't use it because who wants to sound like a Novus Ordo Modernist?

In other words, we should avoid the term "Holy Spirit" for reasons of PRUDENCE and that is the end of the list. There is nothing objectively wrong with the term.

It is also a bad idea to bring the Gospel, or our speech to God, down to a comic book, banal, everyday tone or level. That is why we shouldn't call God with the same term we use for the mailman ("you").

There is a similar reason for women wearing long skirts. (There are other reasons too, but I'm focusing on just one reason here.) Even if one could argue that certain kinds of pants with a long shirt over it met the norms of Catholic modesty, why would you? I mean, most worldlings aren't going to single you out or give you a hard time for wearing loose fitting pants with a loose shirt over it. Won't they just assume you're like everyone else in the World? How will they know you're a Trad then? Why shouldn't we scream to the world that we're Traditional Catholics, and that we're not ashamed of our Faith?

You don't want pagan residents of Sodom and Gomorrah to treat you like one of their own, or fail to give you a hard time, do you? You really want to "fit in", in the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah? God forbid!

You really want this?

I love Hillary Clinton! She is awesome!
Obama is like a messiah!
Archbishop Lefebvre was a disobedient rebel!
The Catholic Church is horrible!
Abortion is just reproductive rights for women.
People should be able to love whoever they want.
Matthew is a great guy!


Um...no?
Exactly.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 11:14:44 AM
Where does this leave the English language Novos Ordo baptism? Are those who are baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit actually baptised?

Are they conditionally rebaptised?

What form was used for the baptism of Bishop Williamson?
By the way, Last Tradhican, this is the "armchair theology" I was criticizing, saying that it made me sick.
He took your opinion as a springboard, and went WAY OUT THERE with it.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Ladislaus on May 14, 2019, 12:26:41 PM
We had a hotly-debated thread on this subject a long time ago.  I actually "came out" with my preference for term Holy Spirit, not only because it etymologically follows the Latin, but because the term "ghost" has picked up in more recent times the strong connotation of referring to a disembodied human soul.  You could go back and forth.  I prefer the French (Latinate / Romance) in the English language to the barbaric Saxon elements ... LOL.  Neither term is inherently good or bad, wrong or right, valid or invalid.  Both are valid.  If either one had been invalid, the Church would have pronounced on it long ago ... since both terms were in use among Catholics even before Vatican II.

So, for instance, when I pray the Rosary and am not praying in Latin, I always use Holy Spirit, but among Traditional Catholics I always use "Ghost" because, as Matthew points out, it's become this shibboleth, and I don't want to cause scandal.  Many Traditional Catholics immediately in their minds label you as "suspect of Modernism" if you ever use the term Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 01:03:19 PM
We had a hotly-debated thread on this subject a long time ago.  I actually "came out" with my preference for term Holy Spirit, not only because it etymologically follows the Latin, but because the term "ghost" has picked up in more recent times the strong connotation of referring to a disembodied human soul.  You could go back and forth.  I prefer the French (Latinate / Romance) in the English language to the barbaric Saxon elements ... LOL.  Neither term is inherently good or bad, wrong or right, valid or invalid.  Both are valid.  If either one had been invalid, the Church would have pronounced on it long ago ... since both terms were in use among Catholics even before Vatican II.

So, for instance, when I pray the Rosary and am not praying in Latin, I always use Holy Spirit, but among Traditional Catholics I always use "Ghost" because, as Matthew points out, it's become this shibboleth, and I don't want to cause scandal.  Many Traditional Catholics immediately in their minds label you as "suspect of Modernism" if you ever use the term Holy Spirit.
I understand all of that, but what about calling God , you. I see it a many post 1959 Latin mass missals, usually along with those Picaso-esque ugly drawings to ridicule art.

(http://www.ccwatershed.org/media/photologue/photos/167_Ugly_Catholic_Artwork_1960s.png)
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 01:32:31 PM
Where are you seeing God referred to as "you"? Only contexts I ever hear it used in is in prayers like "Please Lord, grant me Your help in..." etc. Saying "Lord, grant me the Lord's help" or "God, grant me God's help" would sound very strange grammatically in English and almost as if you were referring to another God. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 01:49:21 PM
Where are you seeing God referred to as "you"? Only contexts I ever hear it used in is in prayers like "Please Lord, grant me Your help in..." etc. Saying "Lord, grant me the Lord's help" or "God, grant me God's help" would sound very strange grammatically in English and almost as if you were referring to another God.
Please Lord, grant me Thy help in.....
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 02:18:19 PM
Please Lord, grant me Thy help in.....
False pedantry. Historically, thou was the less formal variant and you the more formal. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 02:49:33 PM
but among Traditional Catholics I always use "Ghost" because, as Matthew points out, it's become this shibboleth, and I don't want to cause scandal.  Many Traditional Catholics immediately in their minds label you as "suspect of Modernism" if you ever use the term Holy Spirit.

...and for good reason! That is my point.

99 times out of 100, someone who uses "Holy Spirit" in public (among Trads) is very new to Tradition, and not fully Trad-ified yet. And not being Trad today is generally a very bad thing! If they aren't Trad-ified, that means they have a lot of Novus Ordo baggage, haven't eliminated much of their Novus Ordo-induced ignorance of the Faith yet, haven't got used to frequent confession yet, etc.

Remember, the essentials of being a Trad are ALL good things: being strong in one's Faith, having the heart to practice heroic virtue in some areas at times, having the Faith be the center of one's life, knowing one's Faith well, being faithful to Catholicism in all its dogmas and practices (keeping in mind that Catholicism is a fundamentally traditional and stable religion that doesn't change much, certainly not in its dogmas or morality)

Being rude, being lazy, being unmotivated -- none of those things are essential to the Traditional movement, though they are found in a few of its members.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2019, 02:51:51 PM
False pedantry. Historically, thou was the less formal variant and you the more formal.

Yes, but this is 2019, not some earlier point in history. Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.
If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 03:21:11 PM
False pedantry. Historically, thou was the less formal variant and you the more formal.
When was that? My missals only go back to 1855. Can you produce an older missal where they call God you?
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Quo vadis Domine on May 14, 2019, 03:27:40 PM
...and for good reason! That is my point.

99 times out of 100, someone who uses "Holy Spirit" in public (among Trads) is very new to Tradition, and not fully Trad-ified yet. And not being Trad today is generally a very bad thing! If they aren't Trad-ified, that means they have a lot of Novus Ordo baggage, haven't eliminated much of their Novus Ordo-induced ignorance of the Faith yet, haven't got used to frequent confession yet, etc.

Remember, the essentials of being a Trad are ALL good things: being strong in one's Faith, having the heart to practice heroic virtue in some areas at times, having the Faith be the center of one's life, knowing one's Faith well, being faithful to Catholicism in all its dogmas and practices (keeping in mind that Catholicism is a fundamentally traditional and stable religion that doesn't change much, certainly not in its dogmas or morality)

Being rude, being lazy, being unmotivated -- none of those things are essential to the Traditional movement, though they are found in a few of its members.
I was under the impression that the use of the word “Ghost”, derived from the German, was more specific to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. All Spirits that dwell in Heaven are Holy, thus Holy Spirit is less specific, although certainly not incorrect. To be perfectly clear, I always use Holy Ghost.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:34:03 PM
Yes, but this is 2019, not some earlier point in history. Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.
If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
And yet, all the English Bible translations from back then used "thou" and "thee". Similarly the Germans always used "du" for God. In Latin, Hebrew, etc. there's no distinction between formal and informal versions of the 2nd person singular. Most languages with a distinction use the informal version. A notable exception is French, but there's plenty of usage of "tu" for God even in French dating back centuries. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction)
I'd also question the assumption that "thee" and "thou" are formal in modern English. They're just archaic. No one addresses a President or King or anyone as "thou"(it's Your Majesty, not Thy Majesty). People only do it with God because they're referencing old translations, which is perfectly fine of course, but to act as if saying the general "you"(which is used both formally and informally in modern English) is disrespectful when in fact "thou" and "thee" were brought in when they were informal, is just plain wrong. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:35:12 PM
When was that? My missals only go back to 1855. Can you produce an older missal where they call God you?
No because they only ever used "thou" and "thee", which were the informal variants of "you". Thanks for proving my point, I guess?
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 03:35:25 PM
I was under the impression that the use of the word “Ghost”, derived from the German, was more specific to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity. All Spirits that dwell in Heaven are Holy, thus Holy Spirit is less specific, although certainly not incorrect. To be perfectly clear, I always use Holy Ghost.
Same as I was taught by my priest who was ordained in 1951. Like I said in the OP


Quote
I always remember my priest, ordained in 1951, telling me, there are many holy spirits but only one Holy Ghost.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 03:36:55 PM
No because they only ever used "thou" and "thee", which were the informal variants of "you". Thanks for proving my point, I guess?
So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies? Do you agree with todays missals calling God you?

Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:39:30 PM
So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies? Do you agree with todays missals calling God you?
I'm just stating a matter of fact. "Thou" is not and was never the formal. It was always the informal/personal form. If you have a problem with God being referred to as "you"(which isn't even informal, it's both, e.g "Your Majesty" is not informal), then you should also have a problem with the 1855 Missal refering to Him as "thou". 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 03:41:19 PM
I'm just stating a matter of fact. "Thou" is not and was never the formal. It was always the informal/personal form.
I asked two questions which you did not answer. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 03:47:35 PM
I asked two questions which you did not answer.
Your questions are moronic because you're falsely calling "you" informal, and you're ignoring the fact that in the 1855 Missals you cited, "thou" was the informal form. I don't "agree" with the new Missal, but so far you've been completely unable to say why exactly it's an innovation or a problem. It's just using the generic(both formal and informal) 2nd person singular pronoun, just as Latin does. The Latin also uses the same word 2nd person singular pronoun for God as "nobodies". So in actual fact, using "you" is actually more formal and closer to the Latin than "thou" was when that 1855 Missal was new. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 04:00:12 PM
And yet, all the English Bible translations from back then used "thou" and "thee". Similarly the Germans always used "du" for God. In Latin, Hebrew, etc. there's no distinction between formal and informal versions of the 2nd person singular. Most languages with a distinction use the informal version. A notable exception is French, but there's plenty of usage of "tu" for God even in French dating back centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction)
I'd also question the assumption that "thee" and "thou" are formal in modern English. They're just archaic. No one addresses a President or King or anyone as "thou"(it's Your Majesty, not Thy Majesty). People only do it with God because they're referencing old translations, which is perfectly fine of course, but to act as if saying the general "you"(which is used both formally and informally in modern English) is disrespectful when in fact "thou" and "thee" were brought in when they were informal, is just plain wrong.
I have in my hands a 1966 missal, I went to look up the opening of the mass, the beautiful Psalm 42 which converted me, and it is gone. Totally eliminated. So I'll go elsewhere to give examples of "you" and you tell me if a king was ever addressed as this?

O God, You give us life again
And Your people will rejoice in You
Show us Lord Your kindness
And grant us Your salvation
O Lord hear my prayer
And let my cry come to You

Take away from us our sins O Lord, we beseech You...

We beseech You, by the merits of your saints....
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Stubborn on May 14, 2019, 04:04:05 PM
I've observed the only time prots and NOers *don't* use "Holy Spirit" and use "Holy Ghost" instead, is when they are trying to attribute complete orthodoxy to whatever it is that they are "preaching".

I recall a very good priest in the late 60s who was expelled from his rectory by his bishop for refusing to go along with the revolution, he used both Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit, not always in the same sermon though. One of the men asked him about it at breakfast, he said that he often used "Holy Spirit" as a tool "to show the heretics that I can speak their language as well as they can, except when I preach, I preach Catholicism, not hootananyism".

It really does not matter which one is used, but for us, we are all more familiar and comfortable with Holy Ghost, whereas Holy Spirit rings as a type of deceit or slander to our ears because of it being stolen and habitually [mis]used and abused by the enemy.

Anyway, my prayer book is from 1961 and has You and Yours all over the place in it - I never really paid much attention to it till now.



Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 04:04:19 PM
Your questions are moronic ...
Then you should have no problem answering them. Answer the  questions

Quote
So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies? Do you agree with todays missals calling God you?

Are you gay or melancholic?
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 04:15:21 PM
I have in my hands a 1966 missal, I went to look up the opening of the mass, the beautiful Psalm 42 which converted me, and it is gone. Totally eliminated. So I'll go elsewhere to give examples of "you" and you tell me if a king was ever addressed as this?

O God, You give us life again
And Your people will rejoice in You
Show us Lord Your kindness
And grant us Your salvation
O Lord hear my prayer
And let my cry come to You

Take away from us our sins O Lord, we beseech You...

We beseech You, by the merits of your saints....
You would use "you" with a King. "Your Majesty" not "thy Majesty". 
Citing times they use "you" is not proof that "you" is informal. Once again, "you" is neither formal nor informal. The same as its translation in Latin. Whereas "thou" when used in the 1855 Missal you cited, WAS INFORMAL. 

Then you should have no problem answering them. Answer the  questions

Are you gay or melancholic?

I already addressed both questions, imbecile. I'll repeat: As to the first, "you" is not informal, whereas "thou" in the old Missals was. So your accusations apply to the OLD Missals and not the new ones.

As for the second, I already said I don't "agree" with the Missals in that I really don't care about "you" vs "thou" as you've given absolutely no reason why "you" is less appropriate than "thou". The usage of "you" exactly mirrors the Latin equivalent, and is in fact less informal than "thou" was in the old translations. Your complete inability to actually respond to and attempt to refute my points is what's effeminate here, you're arguing with emotion.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Jaynek on May 14, 2019, 04:22:27 PM
And yet, all the English Bible translations from back then used "thou" and "thee". Similarly the Germans always used "du" for God. In Latin, Hebrew, etc. there's no distinction between formal and informal versions of the 2nd person singular. Most languages with a distinction use the informal version. A notable exception is French, but there's plenty of usage of "tu" for God even in French dating back centuries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction)
I'd also question the assumption that "thee" and "thou" are formal in modern English. They're just archaic. No one addresses a President or King or anyone as "thou"(it's Your Majesty, not Thy Majesty). People only do it with God because they're referencing old translations, which is perfectly fine of course, but to act as if saying the general "you"(which is used both formally and informally in modern English) is disrespectful when in fact "thou" and "thee" were brought in when they were informal, is just plain wrong.
It would be clearer to say that in the past "thou" was a familiar version, rather than an informal version.  It was used to show the closeness and intimacy of the our relationship with God.  At that time "you" was used with strangers, but it was not impolite or disrespectful to use "thou" with family and friends.

As Matthew said, however, the historical usage of these words is irrelevant. Now,"thou" is referred to as hieratic language, that is, a kind of formal language set apart for solemn and religious contexts.  It is not correct to call it archaic, since it is still in current use.  Nor is it "referencing old translations."

As we use it today, "thou" fosters a sense of the sacred because this is special language for God, while "you" is the everyday term.  I might not go as far as calling "you" disrespectful, but it is more appropriate to have special language.  Our worship is full of sacred things set apart for God.  The vestments are only for use in liturgy.  The Chalice is not used when one wants a drink of water.

We live in a culture greatly lacking in a sense of the sacred, so it makes sense that it is good to use words that foster it.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 04:22:34 PM
I already addressed both questions, imbecile. 
Sorry I even asked you,  I should have left it as Matthew wrote:
Quote
Yes, but this is 2019, not some earlier point in history. Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.
If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
I need to remember to look at peoples reputation scores before I bother to ask them anything.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 04:28:26 PM
It would be clearer to say that in the past "thou" was a familiar version, rather than an informal version.  It was used to show the closeness and intimacy of the our relationship with God.  At that time "you" was used with strangers, but it was not impolite or disrespectful to use "thou" with family and friends.

As Matthew said, however, the historical usage of these words is irrelevant. Now,"thou" is referred to as hieratic language, that is, a kind of formal language set apart for solemn and religious contexts.  It is not correct to call it archaic, since it is still in current use.  Nor is it "referencing old translations."

As we use it today, "thou" fosters a sense of the sacred because this is special language for God, while "you" is the everyday term.  I might not go as far as calling "you" disrespectful, but it is more appropriate to have special language.  Our worship is full of sacred things set apart for God.  The vestments are only for use in liturgy.  The Chalice is not used when one wants a drink of water.

We live in a culture greatly lacking in a sense of the sacred, so it makes sense that it is good to use words that foster it.
But when "thou" was introduced, i.e when the first Catholic English translations were being made, "thou" was not a sacred or special term at all. It was the same word as was used for friends, children, and even animals. If we had a word with a similar meaning today that was substituted in, you can bet any money Last Tradhican would be calling it the height of disrespect and borderline blasphemy. To quote him "So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies?". At the time of the 1855 Missal, the more formal, solemn term would've been "you". So by his logic, he should have a greater problem with the 1855 Missal than with the new one.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 04:28:59 PM
Sorry I even asked you,  I should have left it as Matthew wrote:I need to remember to look at peoples reputation scores before I bother to ask them anything.
Once again arguing with emotion. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Jaynek on May 14, 2019, 04:29:44 PM
Anyway, my prayer book is from 1961 and has You and Yours all over the place in it - I never really paid much attention to it till now.
I just checked my Angelus Press Missal and it has "Thou" and "Thee".  It is copyright 2004.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 04:31:29 PM
My second language is Spanish, I am 100% of Spanish blood, but I was educated totally in the USA. I speak Spanish fluently. In Spanish people are formally addressed as "usted" and close friends are informally addressed as "tu". My grandfather was a CEO of a very large corporation with over 3000 employees, and he was older in age than the owner of the business, and even after they worked together for 50 years, in their late 80's, they refered to each other as "Senor" (Mr.) and "usted".

The old Latin Mass missals in Spanish that I have all use the formal "Usted", and the modern ones went with Tu. There is a power behind that move in English and in Spanish.

Those that have eyes to see let them see.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 04:34:10 PM
My second language is Spanish, I am 100% of Spanish blood, but I was educated totally in the USA. I speak Spanish fluently. In Spanish people are formally addressed as "usted" and close friends are addressed as "tu". My grandfather was a CEO of a very large corporation with over 3000 employees, and he was older in age than the owner of the business, and even after they worked together for 50 years, in the 80's they refereed to each other as Mr. and Usted.

The old Latin Mass missals in Spanish that I have all use the formal "Usted", and the modern ones went with Tu. There is a power behind that move in English and in Spanish.

Those that have eyes to see let them see.
If using the familiar form is a problem, then you should be condemning the 1855 English Missal for using it too. "Thou" may be seen as solemn now, but it wasn't back then. At the time it was the equivalent of "tu" in Spanish or "du" in German. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Your Friend Colin on May 14, 2019, 04:39:07 PM
 They are puffed up with pride to the Nth degree, and split-second quick to place themselves and their judgments above legions of learned Catholic (not modernist) priests and bishops.
I say Holy Spirit when I pray with my mother or anyone else who goes to the Novus Ordo. When I'm by myself, I say Holy Ghost or when I'm around other trads. 
I noticed saying Holy Ghost around non-trads gave me a sort of "elitist" opinion of myself.
My predominant vice is already pride. This is one way to temper it for me.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Jaynek on May 14, 2019, 04:42:35 PM
But when "thou" was introduced, i.e when the first Catholic English translations were being made, "thou" was not a sacred or special term at all. It was the same word as was used for friends, children, and even animals. If we had a word with a similar meaning today that was substituted in, you can bet any money Last Tradhican would be calling it the height of disrespect and borderline blasphemy. To quote him "So we should talk to God informally, like we talk to nobodies?". At the time of the 1855 Missal, the more formal, solemn term would've been "you". So by his logic, he should have a greater problem with the 1855 Missal than with the new one.
At the time "thou" was first introduced, it signified the close, loving relationship we have with God.  And that was a good thing to do at time, in a culture in which this truth was obscured. (This is shortly before the rise of Jansenism, which saw God as very distant from humanity, to point where it developed into heresy.)

But that was a different time.  The language was different and spiritual needs were different.  We live in a culture that has lost the sense of the sacred.  The word that better addresses that need is "thou" not "you".  The connotations of these words in the past is irrelevant.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 04:45:54 PM
Once again arguing with emotion.
For the benefit of those reading this thread, emotions has nothing to do with it, it is precisely the opposite, the reputations score here on CI are very accurate, and they have always worked for me, and whenever I answer someone with a negative score, it turns out to be a waste of time. It is best to answer as Matthew did and not give them the pulpit.  Obviously, Matthew knew the writer.

Quote
Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.
If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 04:47:29 PM
At the time "thou" was first introduced, it signified the close, loving relationship we have with God.  And that was a good thing to do at time, in a culture in which this truth was obscured. (This is shortly before the rise of Jansenism, which saw God as very distant from humanity, to point where it developed into heresy.)

But that was a different time.  The language was different and spiritual needs were different.  We live in a culture that has lost the sense of the sacred.  The word that better addresses that need is "thou" not "you".  The connotations of these words in the past is irrelevant.
Ok hold on now. If I said "it's a different time, we have different spiritual needs", you'd be calling it modernism. I understand that "thou" signifies closeness, but so does the Spanish "tu" which Tradhican condemns. "Thou" back then and "tu" in Spanish or "du" in German today are basically identical in meaning, and yet he's alright with the 1855 Missal's choice to use "thou" but not the use of "tu" in Spanish Missals. God does not change, so there's no reason why we'd need to refer to Him with different levels of closeness or formality depending on the decade of our birth. If "tu" today is wrong, then so was "thou" in 1855. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 04:49:42 PM
For the benfit of those reading this thread, emotions has nothing to do with it, it is precisely the opposite, the reputations score here on CI are very accurate, and they have always worked for me, and whenever I answer someone with a negative score, it turns out to be a waste of time. It is best to answer as Matthew did and not give them the pulpit.  Obviously, Matthew knew the writer.
Yet you've still not given a single reason why "thou" was ok in 1855 but not "tu" today in Spanish. Because the only reason you have is emotional, you grew up with "thou" so you like it, and you're falsely equating what "thou" means to you today with what it meant in 1855. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Last Tradhican on May 14, 2019, 05:00:19 PM
Above is an example of what happens when you give the pulpit to a person with negative reputation score. There is good reason why they have a negative reputation score, they do not know when to shut up. For those others who have eyes to see, read the two quote below:


Quote
Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.



Quote
If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant. We live in a culture that has lost the sense of the sacred.  The word that better addresses that need is "thou" not "you".  The connotations of these words in the past is irrelevant.

And nothing else need be added by me. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: forlorn on May 14, 2019, 05:02:40 PM
Above is an example of what happens when you give the pulpit to a person with negative reputation scores. There is good reason why they have a negative reputation score, they do not know when to shut up. Those others who have eyes to see, read below quotes.

Today, "Thee" and "Thou" are formal, so it's how WE (in 2019) talk to God. "You" and "Your" is how we talk to the garbage man.

If they were reversed in 1600, that is completely irrelevant.
We live in a culture that has lost the sense of the sacred.  The word that better addresses that need is "thou" not "you".  The connotations of these words in the past is irrelevant.
You were the one who brought up the 1855 Missal. What "thou" and "thee" mean in 2019 is irrelevant to what they meant in 1855, just as Matthew said about 1600 and 2019. "Thou" in 1855 meant the same thing as "tu" today in Spanish, so why is one bad and not the other? You refuse to address this because you have no explanation. 
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Nadir on May 14, 2019, 05:03:09 PM
After reading this thread I thank God I was brought up a Catholic, so my religion is not traditionalism.
Title: Re: From Holy Spirit to calling God You
Post by: Jaynek on May 14, 2019, 05:07:21 PM
Ok hold on now. If I said "it's a different time, we have different spiritual needs", you'd be calling it modernism. I understand that "thou" signifies closeness, but so does the Spanish "tu" which Tradhican condemns. "Thou" back then and "tu" in Spanish or "du" in German today are basically identical in meaning, and yet he's alright with the 1855 Missal's choice to use "thou" but not the use of "tu" in Spanish Missals. God does not change, so there's no reason why we'd need to refer to Him with different levels of closeness or formality depending on the decade of our birth. If "tu" today is wrong, then so was "thou" in 1855.
Spiritual truths are eternal and unchanging.  Spiritual needs vary according to individual and culture.  Modernism wrongly attempts to treat spiritual truths as changeable, but nobody here is saying anything like that.

God does not change, but the world does.  We live in a post-VII, post-NO world.  There is Communion in the hand while standing, the altar rails removed, felt banners replacing statues of Saints, shunning of Latin in liturgy, virtual disappearance of Gregorian chant. This list could go on, but I hope this is enough to give the idea.

All of these things and more are attacks on the sacred and our ability to have a sense of the sacred.  Anything we can do to hold onto the sacred is something that we ought to do.  

As the word "thou" is used in English today, it is special language for worship.  It is sacred language, not common.  And that is why we should prefer it.

By 1855, "thou" was no longer familiar speech.  It was already hieratic speech as it is now.