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Author Topic: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass  (Read 10140 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #120 on: July 01, 2022, 07:25:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: ServusInutilisDomini on July 01, 2022, 06:29:38 AM
    The question is not whether she will get beaten and bruised, that has obviously happened. But can the Church beat and bruise herself? Obviously not, and her faith must remain spotless, of course, which all have understood to mean she can promulgate no heresy.
    Yes, it is this ^^ simple. No, the Church cannot bruise herself, nor can the Church teach even the smallest error, certainly not heresy. This is how we know the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church - and as if it needs to be said, the conciliar popes are not the Catholic Church.


    Quote from: ServusInutilisDomini on July 01, 2022, 06:29:38 AM
    There is no precedent of a heretical pope. On the other hand, we have much precedent on the vacancy of the See. Please illuminate me, after how long a vacancy has the Church defected? Is it 3 years? Ten and a half and three days? Thirty eight?
    Obviously a defection must have a qualitative difference from a mere vacancy, a difference which only a hypothetical heretical pope can constitute.sly hope not.
    There is really no need for a precedent of a heretical pope. There wasn't in the 60s and there's not one now.

     When the current revolution first hit in the 60s, the faithful were waiting for the pope to stop the madness, the faithful had no flipping idea that the crisis had the pope's blessing! It took probably a few years before the faithful knew that it was the pope who imposed the whole evil thing.

    In the mean time, the faithful (priests and laity) set up chapels in homes, halls and garages to keep celebrating the true Mass and sacraments until the pope finally steps in and fixes the mess. This was the mind set when the crisis was only in it's infancy.

     This is why no precedent is needed. God expects us to maintain the faith even when the whole freaking world does not. God gives us all what we need toward that end - regardless if the pope is holy, an evil heretic or no pope at all - the gates of hell will not prevail.

    But the faithful kept the faith - that is the precedent. The rest went along and lost the faith for themselves and their children - without ever having any knowledge whatsoever that the changes they chose to embrace were blessed by the pope, the faithful and the others both were faced with the same choice - that has never changed and likely never will change.
     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #121 on: July 01, 2022, 07:43:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 01, 2022, 07:25:56 AM
    Yes, it is this ^^ simple. No, the Church cannot bruise herself, nor can the Church teach even the smallest error, certainly not heresy. This is how we know the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church ...

    If you stopped there, this would be correct Catholic teaching.  Of course, your issue is that you solve this with a tautology, that erroneous teaching are not Magisterium.  So then your statement above is rooted in the tautology.  Only the "correct" stuff (as per your private judgment) is actually the Church.  Your reduction of the Magisterium to only those things that happen to be true (according to you) ... that's the problem here.

    Were it not for your tautological reduction of the Magisterium, your statement above is precisely what the SVs hold.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #122 on: July 01, 2022, 07:48:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2022, 07:43:48 AM
    If you stopped there, this would be correct Catholic teaching.  Of course, your issue is that you solve this with a tautology, that erroneous teaching are not Magisterium.  So then your statement above is rooted in the tautology.  Only the "correct" stuff (as per your private judgment) is actually the Church.  Your reduction of the Magisterium to only those things that happen to be true (according to you) ... that's the problem here.

    Were it not for your tautological reduction of the Magisterium, your statement above is precisely what the SVs hold.

    Ladislaus-

    1) Are ecclesiastical laws magisterial teaching?

    2) Can ecclesiastical laws contain error, or be erroneous?

    :popcorn:


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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #123 on: July 01, 2022, 07:58:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2022, 07:43:48 AM
    If you stopped there, this would be correct Catholic teaching.  Of course, your issue is that you solve this with a tautology, that erroneous teaching are not Magisterium.  So then your statement above is rooted in the tautology.  Only the "correct" stuff (as per your private judgment) is actually the Church.  Your reduction of the Magisterium to only those things that happen to be true (according to you) ... that's the problem here.

    Were it not for your tautological reduction of the Magisterium, your statement above is precisely what the SVs hold.

    In a nutshell, Stubborn’s arguments are genuinely circular. Ultimately *some* R&R adherents (some unwittingly) become their own pope because it is they who are the final arbiters of what is Catholic teaching and what it not. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #124 on: July 01, 2022, 08:13:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 01, 2022, 07:58:35 AM
    In a nutshell, Stubborn’s arguments are genuinely circular. Ultimately *some* R&R adherents (some unwittingly) become their own pope because it is they who are the final arbiters of what is Catholic teaching and what it not.
    And without a pope, who is the final arbiter for sedes?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #125 on: July 01, 2022, 08:16:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 01, 2022, 07:43:48 AM
    If you stopped there, this would be correct Catholic teaching.  Of course, your issue is that you solve this with a tautology, that erroneous teaching are not Magisterium.  So then your statement above is rooted in the tautology.  Only the "correct" stuff (as per your private judgment) is actually the Church.  Your reduction of the Magisterium to only those things that happen to be true (according to you) ... that's the problem here.

    Were it not for your tautological reduction of the Magisterium, your statement above is precisely what the SVs hold.
    Your idea of what the Magisterium is NO.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #126 on: July 01, 2022, 08:41:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 01, 2022, 08:13:13 AM
    And without a pope, who is the final arbiter for sedes?

    We don’t have one right now, just like you supposedly didn’t when JPII died.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #127 on: July 01, 2022, 08:46:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 01, 2022, 08:13:13 AM
    And without a pope, who is the final arbiter for sedes?

    In your unorthodox view of the Church, the papacy becomes superfluous. That’s why I coined the term “ the church of the superfluous pope”.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #128 on: July 01, 2022, 08:46:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 01, 2022, 08:41:46 AM
    We don’t have one right now, just like you supposedly didn’t when JPII died.
    Not sure what JP2 has to do with anything, but then are you saying above that we're both our own final arbiter?
    And arbiter of what exactly?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #129 on: July 01, 2022, 08:53:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 01, 2022, 08:46:05 AM
    In your unorthodox view of the Church, the papacy becomes superfluous. That’s why I coined the term “ the church of the superfluous pope”.
    Not so, the pope has made himself superfluous due to his heresies, but the papacy is not superfluous. It is unorthodox only in that the pope himself is a heretic.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8
    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #130 on: July 01, 2022, 12:23:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 01, 2022, 08:46:05 AM
    In your unorthodox view of the Church, the papacy becomes superfluous. That’s why I coined the term “ the church of the superfluous pope”.
    A classic.

    The objection: "How can we be 60 years without a pope?"

    Is so easily refuted by the fact that the pope makes the faith more confusing and difficult to practice for most.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #131 on: July 01, 2022, 12:36:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on June 30, 2022, 03:19:00 PM
    Vermont, that sounds good, but it was the same Chair, with the same infallibility in teaching: both spoke for God, and taught with His authority.  Listen to the Scriptures: the example of Israel is an example for our instruction:

    Again, Our Lord told us that the Pharisees "sat in Moses seat" and had his authority, and that they should be listened to: do what they say, etc.. But he also said they could (and did) teach some things that were contrary to the word of God.

    See the attached annotations from the original, Douay translation (1609) of Deuteronomy 17:9.
    When I get back on my laptop instead of the phone (I hate surfing and posting on my phone!), I'll take a look at your attachments, but my initial reaction to your post is everything in the Old Testament was merely a type.  One example is the manna in the desert.  Clearly not the same as the Bread of Life in the New Testament....but it was a type. The New is always superior and supersedes the Old.

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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #132 on: July 01, 2022, 12:43:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: ServusInutilisDomini on July 01, 2022, 12:23:12 PM
    A classic.

    The objection: "How can we be 60 years without a pope?"

    Is so easily refuted by the fact that the pope makes the faith more confusing and difficult to practice for most.
    I agree but...
    He actually makes a bigger problem for himself:
    Quote from: Stubborn on July 01, 2022, 08:53:42 AM
     the pope himself is a heretic.
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    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.
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