Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19 ... 27

Author Topic: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass  (Read 17809 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2022, 10:17:32 AM »
Quote from: DigitalLogos on June 29, 2022, 08:49:49 PM
Why even bother with Theologians when Pope Boniface VIII infallibly declared the necessity of being subject to the Supreme Pontiff:


Or even Vatican I (infallible):

If Bergoglio is the "Pope", ante up and submit to the dogmas of the Church. Otherwise, continue to be a schismatic.
Notice that the dogma says in order to attain salvation, it is necessary to be subject to the pope, the dogma does not say nor even imply that it is necessary to blindly submit to the pope even in his errors and heresies.

You must convince yourself that this dogmatic teaching of the Church is precise, it's not mistaken, it's not evil, nor is it complicated to be subject to even heretical popes. It works like this - we have to obey him as the pope in all those religious matters which fall within the ambit of his authority, unless he should command something which is sinful.

That is dogma, that is what Catholics do especially in this day and age.

What Catholics do not do, is we do not expel popes from the Church as if that is our religious obligation - not even in this day and age.
Logged

Offline epiphany

Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2022, 10:27:00 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on June 30, 2022, 10:17:32 AM
Notice that the dogma says in order to attain salvation, it is necessary to be subject to the pope, the dogma does not say nor even imply that it is necessary to blindly submit to the pope even in his errors and heresies.

You must convince yourself that this dogmatic teaching of the Church is precise, it's not mistaken, it's not evil, nor is it complicated to be subject to even heretical popes. It works like this - we have to obey him as the pope in all those religious matters which fall within the ambit of his authority, unless he should command something which is sinful.

That is dogma, that is what Catholics do especially in this day and age.

What Catholics do not do, is we do not expel popes from the Church as if that is our religious obligation - not even in this day and age.
This seems correct to me.

It seems akin to an sspx priest saying "this is obligatory under pain of mortal sin."  As much as he may want the faithful to follow his order, he has no authority to command such and, therefore, we are under no obligation to obey.
Logged

Offline epiphany

Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #82 on: June 30, 2022, 10:29:54 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 30, 2022, 09:16:31 AM
I actually agree with the Dimond Brothers ... their argument was extremely solid.  Commentaries are not infallible, and I think there was a knee-jerk assumption that this was St. Peter in most commentaries.  Even if it were St. Peter, St. Paul was rebuking him for hypocritical behavior rather than teaching error.  St. Peter never imposed Judaizing requirements on St. Paul et al. but just caved to those who treated the non-Judaized Christians as "second-class" Catholics.  So, as per usual, this R&R argument falls flat.  This is in the same category as the "faith is greater than obedience" fallacy.

Nor was my issue with OP the simple fact that he disagreed with the (man he considers to be) pope on this issue, but with the tone.  AT BEST, when a Pope is mistaken, Catholics are entitled to a respectful disagreement.  SeanJohnson's attitude (assuming Bergoglio is the pope) would be a grave sin and a scandal.  "With all due respect to the Holy Father, I must disagree with some of the statements he made ..." is the best that can be justified.
His tone hit me sideways, too.
If you believe Pope Francis is the pope, then you must be respectful.
Logged

Offline SperaInDeo

  • Supporter
Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2022, 10:39:13 AM »
Quote from: epiphany on June 30, 2022, 10:29:54 AM
His tone hit me sideways, too.
If you believe Pope Francis is the pope, then you must be respectful.
As I'm sure St Paul was, when doing his fraternal correction to the Pope.

And when St Paul was catching his "false brethren" I bet he didn't publicly call them "jew moles" either, or destroy their reputations. I bet he exercised that dirty 'C' word they only say at the Novus Ordo - Charity.
Logged

Offline DigitalLogos

Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #84 on: June 30, 2022, 10:40:31 AM »
Quote from: Stubborn on June 30, 2022, 10:17:32 AM
What Catholics do not do, is we do not expel popes from the Church as if that is our religious obligation - not even in this day and age.
And the burden of proof is on you, and others who support your position, to prove how a heretic can be the Pope.

Me: Catholic dogma and papal teaching states manifest heretics cannot hold office, including the papacy. Therefore, Bergoglio couldn't possibly be the Pope.

You: Heretics can be Pope, and also, heretics are still inside the Church, but we can act like he isn't the Pope as long as we don't say he isn't the Pope.

Given that you've already proven that you have a heretical belief that heretics are inside the Church, I don't see you actually proving how a heretic can be the Pope.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19 ... 27
« previous next »