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Author Topic: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass  (Read 17801 times)

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Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2022, 06:36:36 AM »
Eh, you think that’s magisterial teaching?

Maybe that’s your problem?
If your "Holy Father" issued a bull commanding all Catholics to take the vaccine today would you submit? Given your other behavior towards Bergs I doubt it.

If Frankie was the pope I would take the vaccine, even if the teaching isn't strictly magisterial. Where is your trust in the Chair? 

Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2022, 06:49:26 AM »
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Many of you are stuck in a false-dichotomy, much like Republicans vs Democrats.  Whether you admit it or not, your arguments expose the fact that you believe the pope is incapable of personal heresy.  Such a belief is not a dogma, but a theory.  Therefore, it could be wrong.  Therefore, it's possible that the pope could become a heretic.

If the pope can become a heretic (and I believe he can), then the following is possible:
a.  +ABL's back-n-forth arguments about the pope's orthodoxy finally make sense.
b.  +the fact of the V2 popes being, promoting and condoning heresy makes sense.
c.  Similar to the actions of Christ's day, Annas and Chaiaphas, were heretics for the Jєωιѕн people.

Assuming that a pope can fall into heresy (which dogmatic sedes deny),...then this truly answers the hard questions of our day...then 99% of Trads should get along

Ultimately, Trads are separated by the devil...who uses the pope as a dividing point.  We should be united by Tradition/doctrine; instead we are divided by a false understanding of the limits of an office.  One side sees the papacy as an oracle who cannot err; the other side sees him as an oracle who cannot err.  The same false theory leads to a division in Trads.

The answer is in the middle...The pope cannot err in certain things; but he can err in others.

Trads should be left to hope and prayer...hope in God's Divine Providence for His Church's future and prayers to ask Him for help in our time of trial. 
I'm fairly certain that most sedes if not all do not say a pope can't fall into (public, manifest, not occult) heresy, but that if that were to happen he would no longer be pope. 

I also think that most if not all don't focus on personal heresy but primarily point to Vatican 2 and their teaching thus as the Catholic Faith. They didn't fall into heresy but more than likely already were heretics at the time of their "election".

As for the comparison with the Jєωιѕн leaders, that just doesn't work.  Everything about the Catholic Church, especially Christ's Vicar, is above and beyond what came before. 


Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2022, 06:53:50 AM »
None of those men take a disrespectful and hostile attitude toward the Pope. And the last example is fallacious because St. Paul was rebuking another man named Peter, not St. Peter.

(not that you're honest enough to watch it)

DL I think the DBs are wrong on this.  Catholic commentaries say it was St Peter.  Of course rebuking him is not the same as being disrespectful or derogatory.  

Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2022, 06:57:54 AM »
Exactly right, Pax. Particularly the highlighted part, the analogy with the religious leaders of Israel.

I've said this over and over, drawing the obvious inference from Our Lord's teaching, letting the Word of God speak its truth to us: Jesus said the Pharisees sat in Moses seat (Mt 23:3), with genuine authority in Israel, and they were to be listened to (sound familiar? "He who hears you, hears me"- Luke 10:16) and yet they also taught contrary to the Word of God with their traditions (Mt 15; Mk 7).

And, oh yeah, DL, before you cry "private interpetation": I don't have a problem with "private" interpretations of Scripture being offered for discussion, to be considered on its merits and the strength of its reasoning, but with the - since I was talking of Pharisees - hypocrisy of those who do so making the allegation about others.

Sitting in Moses' seat pales in comparison to sitting in Christ's Seat.

Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2022, 07:29:36 AM »
St Pius X disagrees with you. A priest can certainly say Mass all by himself without even the need of a server, but when there are servers, singers, and congregation available, minimalism should be out of the question.

"Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times." (Tra le sollecitudini, Pius X, 1903)

Two problems here:

1) There is a dispute which says it was not St. Pius X’s intention to introduce congregational singing;

2) There is a dispute as to whether St. Pius X actually included the quoted phrase (“attiva”) in the official version of TLS.

https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f073_Dialogue_1.htm 

And

https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f074_Dialogue_2.htm