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Author Topic: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass  (Read 10205 times)

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Offline epiphany

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Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2022, 07:46:10 AM »
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  • Can you define that please?
    In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, their suffering, their prayers, their work, are united to those of Christ. In as much as it is a sacrifice, the Eucharist is likewise offered for all the faithful, living and dead, in reparation for the sins of all and to obtain spiritual and temporal benefits from God. The Church in heaven is also united to the offering of Christ.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #16 on: June 29, 2022, 07:46:15 AM »
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  • Shame on you.  You owe respect and docility and assent to the teaching of the Vicar of Christ.

    I think God put the novelties of the Conciliar Church in the teachings of Vicars of Christ to disabuse His sheep of an extreme "respect and docility and assent to the teaching of the Vicar of Christ." A reminder to His Church: though I gave you a vicar on earth, yet:

    Quote
    Acts 5:29 - But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.

    Sedes conflate rejecting a teaching with rejecting the primacy and position of the pope as vicar of Christ's Church, joining R & R with Prots in the conflation. They are wrong. 

    The bottom line is both Sedes and R & R reject false teachings from the pope, or "pope," depending on which side you're on. But in both cases, I think God is attempting to be obeyed, rather than men.

    The dispute is largely moot, though Sedes want to make it a "badge" of orthodoxy that one agrees with their view of the papacy . . . which granted they can quote many post-Vatican I theologians as to, which Novus Ordo Watch reminds us. 

    To which (and to whom) I say:


    Quote
    Acts 4:19 - But Peter and John answering, said to them: If it be just in the sight of God, to hear you rather than God, judge ye. [20] For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

    The papacy (or "papacy") we are both dealing with is Francis. Period. 




    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #17 on: June 29, 2022, 07:56:07 AM »
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  • In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, their suffering, their prayers, their work, are united to those of Christ. In as much as it is a sacrifice, the Eucharist is likewise offered for all the faithful, living and dead, in reparation for the sins of all and to obtain spiritual and temporal benefits from God. The Church in heaven is also united to the offering of Christ.

    Yes, hearing Mass excludes none of this. 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #18 on: June 29, 2022, 07:58:30 AM »
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  • Yes, hearing Mass excludes none of this.
    The words "hear" and "participate" are not synonymous. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #19 on: June 29, 2022, 08:07:35 AM »
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  • The words "hear" and "participate" are not synonymous.
    Actually, we not only hear and participate, but we are there to assist at Mass. :cowboy:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #20 on: June 29, 2022, 08:16:42 AM »
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  • The words "hear" and "participate" are not synonymous.

    In the usage of the Church, they are.

    It was not until the advent of the liturgical movement (1880’s) that the term “hear” gave way to “participate.”

    That is not to say that there aren’t countless earlier references to “participation” in the Mass, but simply that this is not how the average Catholic described what he did at Church prior to the liturgical movement.

    For example, when I say I “hear” Mass I do not deny anything in the following  passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia (ie., it’s merely semantics), and I prefer the term “hearing” Mass because it avoids all the ambiguities the modernists have attached to “participation:”

    “Finally, in the fourth place, must be mentioned those who participate actively in the Sacrifice of the Mass, e.g., the servers, sacristan, organist, singers, and the whole congregation joining in the sacrifice. The priest, therefore, prays also in their name: Offerimus(i.e. we offer). That the effect resulting from this (metaphorical) sacrificial activity is entirely dependent on the worthiness and piety of those taking part therein and thus results exclusively ex opere operantis is evident without further demonstration. The more fervent the prayer, the richer the fruit. Most intimate is the active participation in the Sacrifice of those who receive Holy Communion during the Mass since in their case the special fruits of the Communion are added to those of the Mass.”

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10006a.htm

    Moreover, I would dispute anything said in the quoted passage mandates the use of hand missals (which didn’t exist before 1900), congregational singing, or precludes the praying of the Rosary at Mass.  Nevertheless, these things have taken on a quasi-official nature, even within tradition, which are in reality entirely arbitrary preferences (more helpful for some, and less so for others, as nature and temperament dictate).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #21 on: June 29, 2022, 09:29:31 AM »
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  • Same old modernist drivel: “Full, active, conscious, participation.”

    Blah, blah, blah.

    When I go to HEAR Mass, I prepare myself to receive Communion.  Period.

    Missal only occasionally, spending most time silently watching the altar, priest, and servers.

    No need for congregational singing or dialoguing (already signs of infection from modernist liturgical principles), as SSPX seems to want.
    These activities have seen a huge increase at chapel I attend. It is rare to obtain a sung Mass so we get a low Mass with singing of the people.
    The dialogue aberration has increased due to the influx of FSSP folk when they were denied communion a la Covid crisis. 
    No word from the pulpit against the dialoguing. And yes again, the priests want singing, congregational and/or Schola/choir.
    i am a member of the Schola and have become the ersatz kapellmeister of our choir of three, which includes me. I got drafted per se since I can actually sing (operatic baritone bass voice). At least the Latin hymns I chose for use in the Mass proper have been of a traditional classical bent: Ave verum corpus, Locus Iste by Anton Bruckner and the like.
    I would prefer to keep such works strictly for a High Mass and keep quiet in a low Mass. What is a Resistance mole amidst neosspx faithful to do ?

    i will be undergoing major surgery at the beginning of August, thus I will likely be convalescing at home for at least a month if not more.What practical effect this will have on the music situation I know not.

    the expansion of our tiny Schola is a project Father is working on but I foresee problems with its implementation.

    Gospode pomiluj nas!

    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #22 on: June 29, 2022, 09:38:03 AM »
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  • Vigano, Lefebvre, St. Robert Bellarmine, St Paul the Apostle...

    BS ... you lying heretic.  I'm not talking about criticism here, but your arrogant attitude toward the man you claim to be Vicar of Christ, the derogatory and disrespectful attitude.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #23 on: June 29, 2022, 09:39:56 AM »
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  • I think God put the novelties of the Conciliar Church in the teachings of Vicars of Christ to disabuse His sheep of an extreme "respect and docility and assent to the teaching of the Vicar of Christ." A reminder to His Church: though I gave you a vicar on earth, yet:

    Since when does disagreement entitle one to be disrespectful and derogatory to the Vicar of Christ, you shameless heretic?  At best you're entitled to a respectful disagreement.  You guys are a bunch of impious bastards to speak of the man you claim to be the Vicar of Christ the way you do.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #24 on: June 29, 2022, 09:42:12 AM »
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  • BS ... you lying heretic.  I'm not talking about criticism here, but your arrogant attitude toward the man you claim to be Vicar of Christ, the derogatory and disrespectful attitude.

    BS...You filthy apostate schismatic Jєω mole.  I’m not talking about criticism here, but your arrogant attitude toward the man you refuse to recognize as the Vicar of Christ.  Seems to me you’d be better off keeping your trap shut instead of highlighting your hypocrisy in reprimanding others for your own habitual practice.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #25 on: June 29, 2022, 09:44:51 AM »
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  • BS...You filthy apostate schismatic Jєω mole.  I’m not talking about criticism here, but your arrogant attitude toward the man you refuse to recognize as the Vicar of Christ.  Seems to me you’d be better off keeping your trap shut instead of highlighting your hypocrisy in reprimanding others.

    So I'm a Jєω now, too?  So when the other insults don't work, you make stuff up.

    You're a disgraceful non-Catholic heretic.  You don't have anything that resembles the Catholic faith, but are little more than an Old Catholic.

    I'd love to see what St. Pius X would have done to your impious ass if you had responded to his teaching with "blah blah blah ... modernist drivel".


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #26 on: June 29, 2022, 09:48:05 AM »
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  • So I'm a Jєω now, too?  So when the other insults don't work, you make stuff up.

    You're a disgraceful non-Catholic heretic.  You don't have anything that resembles the Catholic faith, but are little more than an Old Catholic.

    Are you off your meds today?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #27 on: June 29, 2022, 09:50:38 AM »
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  • I'd love to see what St. Pius X would have done to your impious ass if you had responded to his teaching with "blah blah blah ... modernist drivel".

    I’d love to see what St. Pius X would have done to your impious ass if you had responded to his teaching with “he’s not the pope.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #28 on: June 29, 2022, 09:52:55 AM »
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  • I’d love to see what St. Pius X would have done to your impious ass if you had responded to his teaching with “he’s not the pope.”

    Uhm, the difference there was that St. Pius X WAS the pope.  Bergoglio is not.  And, indeed, if I came to believe that Bergoglio were the pope, then I'd still rebuke you in the exact same terms.  How dare you speak that way to the Vicar of Christ?

    At best, pretending to cite Bellarmine and St. Paul, you're entitled to, "With all due respect, I must disagree with the Holy Father on this matter."

    This illustrates in very practical terms how pernicious and how non-Catholic your brand of R&R is.  It's not Catholic, but some kind of warped form of Old Catholicism, and you're in serious danger of losing your soul over it.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Francis Issues Desiderio Desideravi on Mass
    « Reply #29 on: June 29, 2022, 09:54:57 AM »
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  • Uhm, the difference there was that St. Pius X WAS the pope.  Bergoglio is not.  And, indeed, if I came to believe that Bergoglio were the pope, then I'd still rebuke you in the exact same terms.  How dare you speak that way to the Vicar of Christ?

    Says the impious schismatic deposer of popes.

    Take your meds and come back in a couple hours.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."