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Author Topic: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass  (Read 3172 times)

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Offline The Cub

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Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
« on: October 28, 2018, 04:59:28 PM »
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    • A very powerful lesson on The Traditional Mass!   :applause:



    Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass

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    Offline Merry

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #1 on: October 28, 2018, 06:39:20 PM »
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    • Ok, so let's take this young, wet behind the ears pup, who presumes to try indoctrinating Catholics that liturgical orthodoxy is really "spontaneous" - and let's have him take a seat and listen to Fr. James Wathen give a Sunday sermon that destroys this little breezer and holds up for ridicule his notion of 8 centuries of Divine Worship -



    We see that here we have a traditional priest who, indeed, "loves that kind of stuff."



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    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #2 on: October 28, 2018, 07:02:38 PM »
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    • Yes, this notion that Liturgy was spontaneous for the first 8 centuries or so is a bunch of Modernist nonsense ... an attempt to justify the modern liturgical innovations.
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    Offline The Cub

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #3 on: October 29, 2018, 01:21:38 PM »
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    • Open your hearts!


    You like the Latin Mass.....that is great.....great!

    Did Christ speak Latin at the Last Supper?  No, He spoke Aramaic, and He said DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME.  What does that tell you?  What does the word 'THIS' refer to?  Does a subsequent Pope have the right to change the DISCIPLINE of the Mass from Aramaic (established by Jesus) and declare that Latin should henceforth be employed? 

    Answer:  "Yes."

    But to claim that the Novus Ordo is invalid is pretzel logic based upon emotion.

    A Pope declares that the Latin Mass is never to be changed, which is his right.....and in respect of the DISCIPLINE of the Mass, ONLY stands as long as successor Popes agree.  The Key word is DISCIPLINE....vs.SUBSTANCE AND FORM.  What is substance?  unleavened bread and wine.  What is form?  "This is My Body; This is My Blood."

    Pope Paul VI changed the DISCIPLINE of the Mass  (Emphasis added), which is JUST AS MUCH HIS RIGHT as Pope, ....and indeed, the Novus Ordo contains both Substance and Form. 

    You have no argument with a subsequent Pope changing the directives of Jesus Christ (viz. "DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME.") in respect of the DISCIPLINE of the First Mass recited in Aramaic.....but you argue that the Novus Ordo is invalid because a subsequent Pope changed the DISCIPLINE of the Mass as set forth by a predecessor Pope to be in Latin. 

    This is a non sequitor.

    Would you have others believe that Jesus Christ, true God and true man, is not present in consecrated hosts and wine via the Novus Ordo?

    Do not quible over nonsense....enjoy the Mass whether in Latin or in the local language.....or even the True Traditional Mass as explained by Fr. Mark in the video in the OP.

    God bless you and your families.

    cub
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #4 on: October 29, 2018, 03:32:29 PM »
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    • So is this "The Cub" modernist a Novus Ordo troll here on CI?

    Does the Pope have a legal right to alter the Mass?  Of course.  Does he have the moral right to pitch it and replace it with a Protestant service?  No, he does not.

    What we're disputing is this video by "Father" Mark where he falsely claims that Liturgies in the Church for the first 8 centuries or so were mostly improvised.  That's utter nonsense that is easily refuted with even a modicuм of research.

    Not all Traditional Catholics consider the Novus Ordo Mass to be invalid, although many do.  And they consider it invalid not merely because it was changed but because the essential form was changed.  No Pope can change the essential form of the Sacraments, which are of divine institution.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #5 on: October 29, 2018, 03:38:40 PM »
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    • Jesus spoke Latin with Pontius Pilate. Latin is a dead language for protection from people like Cub.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #6 on: October 29, 2018, 04:00:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on October 29, 2018, 03:38:40 PM
    Jesus spoke Latin with Pontius Pilate. Latin is a dead language for protection from people like Cub.

    As if Our Lord's use of Aramaic has anything to do with whether the Novus Ordo Mass represents legitimate change.  IMO, Our Lord used Hebrew at the Last Supper.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #7 on: October 29, 2018, 04:22:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: The Cub on October 29, 2018, 01:21:38 PM
    Open your hearts!

    -snip-
    .
    Habemus ad Dominum!
    .
    You seem to be laboring under the impression that the traditionalist resistance can be reduced to linguistic objections.  Traditionalists don't reject (whether on the grounds of invalidity, unlawfulness, or both) the New Order of Mass because it's in the vernacular, they reject it because it has been stripped of everything uniquely Catholic.  It is, most would argue, intrinsically impious.  And don't mistake this for an actual argument, I am simply telling you what the argument is.  You can read the Ottaviani Intervention or virtually any other traditionalist literature on the mass to see why we believe this is the case.
    .
    If the Tridentine mass had simply been offered in the vernacular and nothing else had changed, there'd be no fuss.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #8 on: October 29, 2018, 04:28:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: The Cub on October 29, 2018, 01:21:38 PM

    You have no argument with a subsequent Pope changing the directives of Jesus Christ (viz. "DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME.") in respect of the DISCIPLINE of the First Mass recited in Aramaic.....but you argue that the Novus Ordo is invalid because a subsequent Pope changed the DISCIPLINE of the Mass as set forth by a predecessor Pope to be in Latin.  

    You do not seem to understand the actual position of traditionalists (both in general and on this forum).  Few, if any, would say that the main problem with the new Mass is that it is in the vernacular.  The new Mass is not simply a translation of the Traditional Mass.  The Novus Ordo omits and changes the prayers of the Traditional Mass, often with serious theological implications.  I cannot recall ever seeing someone question the validity of the Novus Ordo only because of its language, but rather they do so due to these changes.  The words of Consecration were tampered with, so these concerns are justified.  If you want to have a real discussion with traditionalists (and not merely troll the forum) you need to understand what traditionalists believe and not argue with a caricature as you have been.

    As has already been stated, the claims in the video are nonsense.  There is no history of spontaneous rather than liturgical worship throughout the first eight centuries of the Church.  While the video mentioned many names of Saints, it presented no quotes or other evidence to support its claims.  The only group known for Charismatic style worship was a heretical group called Montanists.

    However, even if it were true, that would not be reason to model our worship today on these alleged ancient practices.  That would be the error of antiquarianism condemned by Pius XII in Mediator Dei. Perhaps reading this encyclical would give you a better understanding of the Catholic understanding of liturgy.  You currently seem to have a poor grasp of the subject.  Here is a link:  http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei.html

    I see that Mithrandylan posted as I was typing my answer.  I agree that the Ottavin Intervention would help you to understand the real issues.  Here is  link for that too: http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/ottaviani.htm
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    Offline The Cub

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #9 on: October 30, 2018, 07:24:00 PM »
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    • You claim that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid because different prayers are recited from those of the Tridentine Mass.

    Were the prayers of the Tridentine Mass recited at the Last Supper?  At the Last Supper was there altar boy participation, as in the Tridentine?  I know of nothing in Tradition or Holy Scripture indicating altar boys being present at the Last Supper.

    In the event that a priest at a Tridentine Mass runs out of consecrated Hosts while distributing them to the Faithful in Holy Communion, does he restart the Tridentine Mass from the beginning to consecrate additional hosts?  Or does he return to the altar with some unconsecrated hosts and recite the holy words of consecration:  “This is My Body; This is My Blood”?  Answer:  He does not restart the Mass from the beginning, but consecrates additional hosts by reciting the holy words of consecration over them.

    Fact:  Substance and Form existed at the Last Supper; thus, it was a valid Mass.
    Fact:  Substance and Form exist at Tridentine Masses; thus they are valid Masses.
    Fact:  Substance and Form exist at Novus Ordo Masses; thus they are valid Masses.

    Would you have others believe that Jesus Christ, true God and true man, is not present in consecrated hosts and wine via the Novus Ordo simply because you prefer certain complimentary prayers in Latin?

    This is another non sequitor.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #10 on: October 30, 2018, 07:29:52 PM »
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    • Quote
    Substance and Form exist at Novus Ordo Masses; thus they are valid Masses.
    Maybe, maybe not.  Go read Cardinal Ottaviani's analysis of the new mass.

    Either way, even if a new mass is valid, it's still illict and immoral, therefore sinful.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #11 on: October 30, 2018, 07:45:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: The Cub on October 30, 2018, 07:24:00 PM
    You claim that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid because different prayers are recited from those of the Tridentine Mass.


    .
    No one said the Novus Ordo was invalid or inferior or unlawful because it has different prayers.  The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom has different prayers and we have no problem with it.  St. Mark's liturgy has different prayers and we have no problem with it.  I take it you didn't read the Ottaviani Intervention.  If you want to be taken seriously you have to take your opponent seriously.
    .

    Quote
    Were the prayers of the Tridentine Mass recited at the Last Supper?  At the Last Supper was there altar boy participation, as in the Tridentine?  I know of nothing in Tradition or Holy Scripture indicating altar boys being present at the Last Supper.
    .
    Well as a matter of fact the traditional rite is certainly closer to the last supper than the Novus Ordo, but that's beside the point.  The argument isn't that a mass can only be valid if it's words and ceremonies perfectly mimic only the words and ceremonies of the Last Supper.  We're traditionalists, not Wesleyans.
    .

    Quote
    Fact:  Substance and Form existed at the Last Supper; thus, it was a valid Mass.
    Fact:  Substance and Form exist at Tridentine Masses; thus they are valid Masses.
    Fact:  Substance and Form exist at Novus Ordo Masses; thus they are valid Masses.
    .
    Fact: substance and form exist at schismatic liturgies, thus they are valid.
    Fact: substance and form exist at a black mass, supposing a priest offers it, thus black masses are valid.
    .
    While some traditionalists do indeed argue that the Novus Ordo is invalid, what all traditionalists agree with is that it is unlawful and inferior, and not worthy of attendance.  There is more to a Catholic mass than the confection of a valid Eucharist.
    .

    Quote
    Would you have others believe that Jesus Christ, true God and true man, is not present in consecrated hosts and wine via the Novus Ordo simply because you prefer certain complimentary prayers in Latin?
    .
    Obviously not.

    Quote
    This is another non sequitor.
    .
    Well, at least it isn't like your post which is a non sequitur. :D And a strawman, to boot.  A very loosely packed one, at that. 
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    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #12 on: October 31, 2018, 04:12:49 AM »
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    • Why do Novus Ordoites bother trying to convert Catholics to their impious sect. I think Cub has good intentions, but you know what they say about intentions. If the NO is the true Church, it’s magisterium, obviously including their popes, have been convincing people that they can be saved outside the Church for decades. What’s the point of it all? As I told an NO priest once; “If your position is correct then I have nothing to worry about, I will be saved, but if I’m correct, you’ve got big problems.” He could not think of anything else to say after that.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #13 on: October 31, 2018, 09:13:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on October 30, 2018, 07:45:24 PM
    .
    No one said the Novus Ordo was invalid or inferior or unlawful because it has different prayers.  

    This Novus Ordo troll sets up one straw man argument after another.  In point of fact, he's arguing from a position of ignorance.  He doesn't know what Traditional Catholics actually think but argues against his distorted perception of the arguments.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Fr. Mark on the Traditional Mass
    « Reply #14 on: October 31, 2018, 09:15:01 AM »
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    • Substance and Form are not even the right terms.

    For Sacramental validity, we speak of MATTER and Form.

    SUBSTANCE = MATTER + FORM.
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