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Author Topic: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962  (Read 2282 times)

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Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 06:01:12 AM »
Reading the discussion in this thread so far I thought it might be interesting to explore how the 1962 Missal is different for days other than Holy Week and see the effect of the new rubrics on the celebration of Mass.

I looked at the 'Divinum Officium' site on-line, a facsimile of the 1962 MR declared as 'typical' by SCR and another Missal from 1940 (below as 'VO' vetus ordo.  I looked at the 10 days following the feast of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist. Certainly not comparing the entire year but a sample to inform the discussion. Local feasts not considered, nor Votive Masses etc.


24th June
VO: Nativity of St John the Baptist, Double First Class with Octave. Mass De ventre, Gloria, (no Creed), Preface common.  (White)
'62: Nativity of St John the Baptist, I Class.  Mass De ventre, Gloria, Creed, Preface common or of St. John Baptist (where approved).  (White)

25th June
VO: St William, Abbot, Double. Mass Os justi, Gloria, 2nd collect of the Octave, Preface common.  (White)
'62: St William, Abbot, III Class. Mass: Os justi, Gloria, Preface common.  (White)

26th June
VO: Sts. John & Paul, Martyrs, Double. Mass Multae tribulationes, Gloria, 2nd collect of the Octave, Preface common.  (Red)
'62 Sts. John & Paul, Martyrs, III Class. Mass: Multae tribulationes, Gloria, Preface common.  (Red)

27th June
VO: Fourth day within the Octave of St. John the Baptist, Semi-double.  (Anticipated Vigil of Sts. Peter & Paul, Simple).  Mass De ventre, Gloria, 2nd collect Vigil of Sts. Peter & Paul, Preface common, last Gospel of the Vigil.  (White) or Mass of the Vigil Dicit Dominus Petro, 2nd collect of the Octave, 3rd collect of BVM (Grant us…), Preface common, Benedicamus Domino instead of Ite, missa est .  (Violet)
'62: Our Lady on Saturday, IV Class. Mass Salve, Gloria, Preface BVM.  (White)

28th June
VO: Fifth Sunday after Pentecost, Semidouble. Mass Exaudi, Domine, Gloria, 2nd collect St. Irenaeus, 3rd collect of Octave of St. John the Baptist, Creed, Preface of Trinity.  (Green)
'62: Fifth Sunday after Pentecost, II Class. Mass Exaudi, Domine, Gloria, Creed, Preface of Trinity.  (Green)

29th June
VO: SS Peter & Paul Apostles, Double First Class with Octave. Mass Nunc scio vere, Gloria, Creed, Preface of Apostles.  (Red)
'62: SS Peter & Paul Apostles, I Class.  Mass Nunc scio vere, Gloria, Creed, Preface of Apostles.  (Red)

30th June
VO: Commemoration of St. Paul, Greater-double.  Mass Scio cui credidi, Gloria, 2nd collect St Peter, Creed, Preface Apostles.  (Red)
'62: Commemoration of St. Paul, III Class. Mass Scio cui credidi, Gloria, collect of St. Peter added under one conclusion with collect of St. Paul, Preface Apostles.  (Red)

1st July
VO: Precious Blood of OLJC, Double I Class. Mass Redemisti nos, Gloria, 2nd collect Octave Day of St. John the Baptist, Creed, Preface of the Cross.  (Red)
'62: Precious Blood of OLJC, I Class. Mass Redemisti nos, Gloria, Creed, Preface of the Cross.  (Red)

2nd July
VO: Visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Double Second Class.  Mass Salve, Gloria, 2nd collect Sts. Processus & Martinian, Creed, Preface BVM.  (White)
'62: Visitation of the BVM, II Class. Mass Salve, Gloria, 2nd collect Sts. Processus & Martinian, Creed, Preface BVM.  (White)

3rd July
VO: St. Leo II Pope, Semidouble. Mass Statuit, Gloria, 2nd collect Octave of SS Peter & Paul, 3rd collect of BVM (Grant us…), Creed, Preface Apostles, last Gospel of Day within Octave.  (White)
'62: St. Irenaeus Martyr, III Class. Mass Lex veritas, Gloria, Preface common.  (Red)

4th July
VO: Sixth day within Octave SS Peter & Paul, Semidouble. Mass Mihi autem, Gloria, 2nd collect of BVM (Grant us…), 3rd collect for the Church or for the Pope, Creed, Preface Apostles.  (Red)
'62: BVM on Saturday, IV Class. Mass Salve, Gloria, Preface BVM.  (White)

Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 12:33:02 PM »
Oh great, the new rite of ordination was said in Latin, wonderful. This is no different than the New Mass in Latin, the new rite of episcopal consecration in Latin, or for that matter let us read the New Code of Canon Law in Latin.  The words in the new rites do not signify what they ought to signify. The sacramental words do not signify what they once signified under the older traditional rites. 
The new rite of episcopal consecration and the new rite of ordination are not the same kettle of fish. While the new rite of episcopal consecration is legitimately doubtful due to the massive sweeping changes in form, compare that to the relevant words for the Traditional and New Rites of Ordination, tell me if you spot the difference
"Grant we beseech Thee, Almighty Father to these thy servants, the dignity of the Priesthood: renew within them the spirit of holiness so that they may hold from Thee, O God, the office of the second rank in Thy service and by the example of their behavior afford a pattern of holy living."

“Grant we beseech Thee, Almighty Father to these thy servants, the dignity of the Priesthood: renew within them the spirit of holiness. May they hold from Thee, O God, the office of the second rank in Thy service and by the example of their behavior afford a pattern of holy living.”

While immoral, there is no substantial difference between the Form, and if said by a valid Bishop which in Fr. Hesse's case is true, the ordination is valid (but illicit)


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 12:40:36 PM »
While immoral, there is no substantial difference between the Form, 
Many people disagree with you.

Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 06:29:57 PM »
So, you're saying Pius XII was not a true pope? 
 Pax,  Sorry, I missed your question until now.

That's a good question, but before I answer, let me ask you:

 Do you believe Montini was an authentic Pope?


Re: Fr Hesse on the Mass of Pius V vs 1962
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 06:43:57 PM »
I don't understand the concept of ignoring the 62 missal completely, when the only problem is Holy Week.  It shows a lack of understanding of what changed in the 62 missal, which is 98% mainly calendar/feast changes.
 
Even +W was fond of pointing out the 2% poison. 

The obvious purpose of the 62' missal attack on Holy Week was to give cover to the jews on Church teachings about them.  This in itself is an attack on the Truth and has dumbed-down many of the Church Militant.

But to assume that one can change the Liturgy is highly arrogant and we know the enemies of the Church were in on it.

I've heard Trad priests cavalierly brag that,
"If the 62' missal was good for +ABL, it is good enough for me."

Oh boy... when a priest banks his priesthood on a personality cult, time to hand up the stole.