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Author Topic: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews  (Read 19249 times)

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Offline Mr G

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Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2024, 03:10:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2024, 06:44:50 AM
    Unfortunately, the translation of perfidis above as "faithless" is way too weak, as it means more someone who rejected the faith, betrayed the faith, etc.  Jєωs betrayed their Covenant with God by rejecting the Messiah.  One could translate simply as "perfidious", but in English that just means "treacherous" and doesn't convey the notion of "faith" as the Latin does.  Not sure I could think of a single English word to translate perfidis.


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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #16 on: February 15, 2024, 03:11:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 12, 2024, 06:47:15 AM
    At one point he expressed doubts about the validity of his own ordination.  If he hasn't had the matter rectified, he should seek out Bishop Williamson for conditional ordination.  I think he's great, but would like to see him be ordained indubitably as a priest.
    Here is what you are referring to:

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    Offline trento

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #17 on: February 15, 2024, 08:33:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Hank Igitur on February 15, 2024, 03:06:54 PM
    I remember when I went to my parish on Good Friday in 2019 (where they celebrated the pre-1955 Holy Week liturgies), I was the only one in the entire parish who did not genuflect during the prayer for the Jєωs. I didn't feel awkward or out-of-place because, regardless of what mandates or changes are ever applied to that Good Friday liturgy, I will never genuflect for the Sуηαgσgυє of Satan.
    You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #18 on: February 16, 2024, 05:56:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: trento on February 15, 2024, 08:33:04 PM
    You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:
    Why are people using the phrase genuflection anyway?  Isn't it kneeling?  Isn't genuflection what we do when we show reverence to the Blessed Sacrament on the Altar (eg. before entering the pew)?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #19 on: February 16, 2024, 06:46:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 16, 2024, 05:56:38 AM
    Why are people using the phrase genuflection anyway?  Isn't it kneeling?  Isn't genuflection what we do when we show reverence to the Blessed Sacrament on the Altar (eg. before entering the pew)?
    Genuflect comes from Latin as found in the rubrics of the Missal, Ritual, Breviary, and Pontifical, meaning "bend the knee".

    There are many more times that one is to genuflect than when reverencing the Blessed Sacrament.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #20 on: February 16, 2024, 06:49:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 16, 2024, 06:46:10 AM
    Genuflect comes from Latin as found in the rubrics of the Missal, Ritual, Breviary, and Pontifical, meaning "bend the knee".

    There are many more times that one is to genuflect than when reverencing the Blessed Sacrament.
    I know that there are other times.  But is this one of those times?  My missal reads "kneel", not genuflect (as it says for the other prayers).  Kneeling is not the same as genuflecting.
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    Offline CatholicChris

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #21 on: February 16, 2024, 06:50:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: trento on February 15, 2024, 08:33:04 PM
    You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:


    Fr. Guéranger says otherwise. 
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #22 on: February 16, 2024, 07:28:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 16, 2024, 06:49:45 AM
    I know that there are other times.  But is this one of those times?  My missal reads "kneel", not genuflect (as it says for the other prayers).  Kneeling is not the same as genuflecting.
    Kneeling and genuflecting are the same phrase in Latin.

    Vernacular hand missals are very limited in their usefulness when dscussing doctrine, morals, and discipline. Their purpose is to serve as a manual of prayer for the laity that includes the ordinary and, in varying degrees, propers of the Mass. The only hand missals that can adequately serve for discussion of theology and liturgy are the Latin-only published juxta editiam typicam (according to the typical edition) like this one:

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #23 on: February 16, 2024, 07:37:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicChris on February 16, 2024, 06:50:09 AM

    Fr. Guéranger says otherwise.

    That's false and not what Gueranger says.  In all of the orations, the kneeling/genuflection is directed to God.  We're not kneeling to adore the heretics, schismatics, infidels, etc. that are prayed for in any of the orations either.  That's not to diminish the reasons cited by Fr. Gueranger for not genuflecting during the prayer for the Jews (recalling the mocking genuflections to which they at least indirectly subjected Our Lord).  While it was reported that the Roman soldiers performed the action, the situation was set up by the false Jew charges that Christ had declared himself a King (in opposition to Caesar) as a way to browbeat Pilate into condemning Him to the cross.

    Trento was partially correct, partially because Hank Igitur never stated that the genuflection was TO the Jews, but FOR the Jews.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #24 on: February 16, 2024, 07:43:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: trento on February 15, 2024, 08:33:04 PM
    You are not genuflecting to them, but genuflecting to God for their conversion. :facepalm:

    He did not say "to", but rather "for".  :facepalm:
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #25 on: February 16, 2024, 07:47:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 16, 2024, 07:43:19 AM
    He did not say "to", but rather "for".  :facepalm:
    If one sticks to the unreformed Roman Liturgy for Good Friday,  the whole matter becomes moot.

    In the spirit of Sammy Hagar:  "I can't pray 55!"
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    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #26 on: February 16, 2024, 07:51:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on February 16, 2024, 07:28:04 AM
    Kneeling and genuflecting are the same phrase in Latin.

    Vernacular hand missals are very limited in their usefulness when dscussing doctrine, morals, and discipline. Their purpose is to serve as a manual of prayer for the laity that includes the ordinary and, in varying degrees, propers of the Mass. The only hand missals that can adequately serve for discussion of theology and liturgy are the Latin-only published juxta editiam typicam (according to the typical edition) like this one:


    I get that it is the same phrase.  However, people keep asserting that we are "genuflecting" in the Good Friday prayers. We are not (well, those that actually have access to the Good Friday liturgy, which I do not).  We kneel.  There are clearly times in the Mass/Liturgy where there is kneeling but not genuflecting.  This is one of those times.  

    Genuflection is only for God.  I get that Pope Pius XII made a change from not kneeling to kneeling for the Jews.  But there was never any "genuflecting" for anyone.  Can you speak to this instead of repeating the same thing (that the two words are the same in Latin)? It seems to me that if we are going to discuss the Pian change that we should be accurate and not say he imposed genuflection for the Jews.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jews
    « Reply #27 on: February 16, 2024, 07:56:42 AM »
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    • EDIT: WRONG THREAD
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    Offline CatholicChris

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #28 on: February 16, 2024, 08:04:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 16, 2024, 07:37:49 AM
    That's false and not what Gueranger says.  In all of the orations, the kneeling/genuflection is directed to God.  We're not kneeling to adore the heretics, schismatics, infidels, etc. that are prayed for in any of the orations either.  That's not to diminish the reasons cited by Fr. Gueranger for not genuflecting during the prayer for the Jєωs (recalling the mocking genuflections to which they at least indirectly subjected Our Lord).  While it was reported that the Roman soldiers performed the action, the situation was set up by the false Jєω charges that Christ had declared himself a King (in opposition to Caesar) as a way to browbeat Pilate into condemning Him to the cross.

    Trento was partially correct, partially because Hank Igitur never stated that the genuflection was TO the Jєωs, but FOR the Jєωs.


    Fair, I read it rather quickly.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Flectamus Genua: Refusal to Kneel For Good Friday Prayers for the Jєωs
    « Reply #29 on: February 16, 2024, 12:10:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on February 16, 2024, 07:51:55 AM
    I get that it is the same phrase.  However, people keep asserting that we are "genuflecting" in the Good Friday prayers. We are not (well, those that actually have access to the Good Friday liturgy, which I do not).  We kneel.  There are clearly times in the Mass/Liturgy where there is kneeling but not genuflecting.  This is one of those times. 

    Genuflection is only for God.  I get that Pope Pius XII made a change from not kneeling to kneeling for the Jews.  But there was never any "genuflecting" for anyone.  Can you speak to this instead of repeating the same thing (that the two words are the same in Latin)? It seems to me that if we are going to discuss the Pian change that we should be accurate and not say he imposed genuflection for the Jews.
    I spoke with someone else about this and I realized that my 1949 missal states to "kneel" during the Last Gospel (and yet we "genuflect" there).  I also think part of my confusion with the terminology is that I remember kneeling during all of the Good Friday prayers in the Novus Ordo.  I have yet to experience a pre-Vatican II Good Friday liturgy. 
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